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MikePNJ 11-02-2018 12:48 AM

Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
5 Attachment(s)
So where do I begin? I bought a 83 Starwind 19 early in September. It was cheap and was a single owner boat. The PO died last year and the boat had been sitting for a while. I replace the winch, bow stop, and put better tires on the trailer. I step the mast in my driveway and see 2 of the shrouds need replacing and the forstay while I'm at it because that's an important one. I get my new rigging back and run out of time with my friend trying to get it in and have to return home without getting it in.

(I've always wanted to sail, read some books, done some help out sailing cruises but nothing of substance)

Fast forward to today. I have another friend that has sailing experience (good for me) and the weather is great so I'm up for get this boat wet today. He asks if I mind if his wife, friend, friends wife and baby come along because they are in town for a few days and arrived today. Sure no problem. So it's 5 adults and a baby.

After trailering it to the water, setting up rigging, outboard, etc, I finally get it in the water. I motor out to the open lake and we raise the main.

I'm ecstatic, the boat is moving along and everyone is enjoying the view and the late afternoon sun is great. We're probably out about a half hour and I'm loving it!

Then all hell breaks loose.

My friend's wife says, hey is that water normal inside? I look in the companionway and the water is 6 inches deep. Yikes. Looks like it's rising and I don't have a bilge pump. After dropping the main, we fire up the outboard and make sure everyone has a life jacket. (Worst feeling ever, the water is filling and I'm afraid the boat may end up totally going down.)

We get it back to the boat ramp and I get the trailer in quickly, pull the boat and it's crushing the trailer with weight and breaks the winch. It is hanging on the back of the trailer emptying water out of the aft scuppers. Pouring out.

I had brought a second winch with me, turns out a great idea. We get it back on the trailer and take down the rigging. I tow it home and begin the inspection underneath. Nothing is leaking. The cabin has 8 - 10 inches of water in it after driving it home.

I don't understand where the water came in so fast? It's the entire hull compromised? Ugh.

I spent 2 hours with a shop vac getting the water out. I estimated from all the dumping out, probably 150 gallons of water.

Here are some pictures because everyone loves pictures. I didn't get the ones that count of the water inside, I was too concerned getting water out instead of taking pictures.

Any thoughts on what could have happened?

I've owned power boats for the last 10 years, and also have a tritoon I bought new 2 years ago.


Thanks!

jephotog 11-02-2018 01:57 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051561404)
.

Any thoughts on what could have happened?
!

Where is the water draining from in the last photo? Was that drain or scupper well secured when out sailing? How does the o-ring on it look?

Does you boat have a centerboard? My first suspect would be centerboard seals/brackets.

SeaStar58 11-02-2018 06:23 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Did you replace the hoses from the cockpit drains to the through hulls and double clamp them. Could be something simple like old hoses and clamps needed replacing or something very common such as forgetting to put the bilge drain plug in place. If the scupper float on the cockpit drain failed the cabin would not fill up first as the water would be bubbling up through the cockpit drains around your feet unless the hoses had failed. If the centerboard trunk failed catastrophically then you usually would have had a flood of water pouring out of the bottom of the boat around the centerboard when you put it on the trailer.

Minnewaska 11-02-2018 08:31 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
The entirety of the fiberglass is not compromised. You have just so many hull penetrations and one of them is leaking. It’s either at the penetration itself or, if a hose is attached, anywhere along it’s length.

Does your vessel have a bilge drain plug? Was it installed, did it come loose?

MikePNJ 11-02-2018 08:36 AM

So the water is pouring out of the drains that lead out above the waterline. The boat is tilted back not fully on the trailer and the water was so high it was draining from the cockpit area. I was seated working the tiller and no water was inside near me on the floor but down below in the cabin the water was filling. I didn't see any water even dripping out anywhere after my 30 minute drive home.

It was dark outside and I went in and had a quick dinner. No water in my driveway, on the road or anywhere. The boat had about 150 gallons of water inside it at this point. I saw small patches of darker wet on the hull but nothing was dripping or seeping water. I figured it should be coming out somewhere but nothing. There were some lake weed blooms inside not just straight water but I don't know if that was from the area that was sealed with plywood where the above seating is covering or entered from a hole.

I never dropped the keel. It has a line just before the companionway entrance.

MikePNJ 11-02-2018 08:42 AM

I don't know if there is a bilge drain plug, I'll have to check that out. There are hoses inside that lead to above the water line to let water out through a bilge pump and for the sink drain. I'll need to get in and look at it later.

Arcb 11-02-2018 09:01 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Do you have any pics of how the centreboard trunk penetration is sealed from the interior of the boat? I am wondering if its possible the boat was overloaded/over trimmed to the point the centre board penetration was submerged.

I guess you figured this out, but bring a bilge pump and bailing can.

Your boat is under 20 feet, so it should have a capacity plate saying the total number of persons allowed on board. Its worth checking.

jephotog 11-02-2018 11:39 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcb (Post 2051561446)
Do you have any pics of how the centreboard trunk penetration is sealed from the interior of the boat? I am wondering if its possible the boat was overloaded/over trimmed to the point the centre board penetration was submerged.

I am going to just guess that the boat was overloaded but only by a person or two and a baby. I don't think a few 100 extra pounds should affect a boat's floatability like it did.

Note to self: don't take a baby out on a shake down sail.

Spidersloveboats 11-02-2018 07:56 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
If I remember correctly, the centerboard is sealed from the cabin, except possibly where its pivot pin is mounted in the centerboard 'pocket'. The line for controlling the centerboard, the pennant, runs through a hose from the cockpit sole to the below-waterline centerboard pocket. The sink drain hose T's into that hose. I think that connection is close to the waterline. Try checking that.

Spidersloveboats 11-02-2018 08:20 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Also, my manual bilge pump was located in the cabin, under that removable center panel of the v-berth. Not real convenient for single-handing.

oysterman23 11-02-2018 08:38 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
hard way to learn but would say honestly you were lucky given your cavalier approach to handling an unfamiliar boat. Rule 1: know your boat! None of us has any business taking a day party out until we know the basic condition of boat systems plumbing through hulls etc etc. Since things got wet empty out the wet gear clean her all up and get on your hands and knees with a flashlight and check things out. Dont be in a hurry..ask yourself what is That thing this gizmo that wire this hose then check the valves. Take a close look at hose couplings the sink drain (an under appreciated threat!) Jot down any problems. Then do a gear inventory count life preservers flares yadayada. Then prep yourself for a test launch with an experienced friend no guests crowds or babies! Ease the boat in and check all thruhulls drains etc secure the boat away from ramp and let her sit. Check all fittings and bilge again. When you are very sure the boat is remaining dry drop the centerboard 1/3 down and see if any seepage occurs anywhere. If all is well take her for a short run and if all is still well haul sail and take a short sail Return to dock and check everything again especially inside along gunnels, thru hulls (yes again!) If all is dry you did not find a leak or obvious flaw by being this thorough, you have a mystery to solve : what happened Last time! Until that issue is resolved and the boat secured you have no business taking anyone out in your boat. I strongly suggest you avoid being in a hurry to do anything on a boat practice foresight and due diligence always. Thereafter have fun but read Chapman's, Sailing Illustrated and at least three other good general sailing guides this winter until you realize just how truly lucky you were on that first trip.
Best of luck with your boat and what can be a wonderful sport if aporoached responsibly.
Fair Winds

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

MikePNJ 11-02-2018 10:21 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Thanks for the info. I do agree, I wasn't planning a party cruise on the boat. The weather was scheduled to be sunny, warm with light winds. I live in NJ and it's November. I wanted to get the boat in the water once and see what was what. I was happy my friend was available so I could get it out. Last minute he asks if I mind if his 3 friends come along because they are in town for only a few days from England. I preferred not going solo so I agree if they didn't mind and knew it was the first time out on the boat. His friend also has sailing experience. The lake is a tiny lake with nobody out on it. I came prepared with tools, extra winch, extra tires, etc. I wouldn't say I just willy nilly decided to take the boat out. I had all proper safely equipment on board, just wish I had a bilge pump with me.

Do I wish I did it different, sure but I was trying to get the boat in the water before having to wait another 5 months. I replaced 3 stays before taking it out and went over other aspects of the boat. It's my first sailboat but I'm not unfamiliar with boats.

The only below water line hole is the one for the sink drain that comes to a valve. No water leaked out of the hull or that hole when it was sitting on the trailer with 8 inches of water in it. I will plug it anyway because I don't want any issues for something that doesn't need to be on the boat.

Here are some photos of the centerboard and bilge area and hoses that contain the line to raise and lower the centerboard. I'm going to replace them and seal the hose. Also looking to see if the fiberglass areas around the centerboard could be an issue a wouldn't know until I replace the other hoses and test it wet again.

JimsCAL 11-02-2018 11:13 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
The good news is that a leak that bad should be easy to find.

I had one that was would only show up when sailing and usually heeled over. After driving me crazy for over a year, when crawling around in the back of the boat checking the rudder cables, I found a crack in the bottom of the bilge pump hose as it made a sharp turn into the thru hull. Seems it only leaked water when the thru hull went under water at speed.

jephotog 11-03-2018 02:57 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051561702)
Here are some photos of the centerboard and bilge area and hoses that contain the line to raise and lower the centerboard. I'm going to replace them and seal the hose. Also looking to see if the fiberglass areas around the centerboard could be an issue a wouldn't know until I replace the other hoses and test it wet again.

When you replace the hoses put two clamps on each connection. The clamps should be opposite facing of each other. The fact this is not done shows some shortcuts in previous maintenance. Replacing them might solve the leaks or you might find the issue when crawling through your boat.

Another note, when I take out any kids I insist the parents bring a PFD for the child and the child wears it while on the water. It is just me playing it safe. I don't think I would ever take a baby out sailing because as you have seen things can happen and it would be hard to keep a babies head above water if something does.

MikePNJ 11-03-2018 08:48 AM

The baby was wearing a PFD.

She had it on before boarding the boat.

I have 2 children of my own. In NJ it's required for 13 years old and under to wear it. I've owned boats for the past 12 years, have a slip I rent every year, I live 50 feet from the largest lake in NJ. (This year is a draw down year so that lake wasn't usable.)

I took it to a tiny man made lake nearby.

I don't know why everyone is thinking the baby wasnt wearing a PFD. I had jackets for everyone on board also.

Arcb 11-03-2018 08:56 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I took both my kids sailing as babies. My youngest is 4 and a half months and she has done lots of protected water sailing.

This is the baby lifejacket I use. Rated 9lbs and up.

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5013-812/Baby-PFD

Minnewaska 11-03-2018 09:11 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Water pressure is an amazing thing. When submerged, water ingress was being pushed in, under pressure. When you hauled, it was just gravity draining it out, so I wouldnít expect to find the leak that way.

Could have been a small crack in a hose, leaking valve, loose clamp or even failed bedding on the thru hull. None would allow much water back out.

The good news is you have a very limited number of places this could be occurring. I would update/upgrade them.

TimMarks 11-03-2018 12:19 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Leaks can be hard to find.

Is there a cockpit drain that goes out the transom? Look below decks at both ends of that drain line.

Centerboard trunks can be a source of leak. It looks like most of the centerboard is housed in the shoal keel, but look around the top of the trunk for any signs of laminate separation.

And the Dread Previous Owner (DPO) might have installed a drain plug somewhere in the hull to keep the interior drained when it is sitting on the trailer. Inspect the underside to see if there are any other through-hull fittings besides the sink.

And while you are at it, replace the hose on the centerboard trunk cable and sink... both look suspect.

Good luck with your search.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oysterman23 (Post 2051561686)
test launch...Ease the boat in and check all thruhulls drains etc secure the boat away from ramp and let her sit. Check all fittings and bilge again. When you are very sure the boat is remaining dry drop the centerboard 1/3 down and see if any seepage occurs anywhere. If all is well take her for a short run and if all is still well haul sail and take a short sail

excellent advice. Some leaks can be found only by getting the boat wet.

chef2sail 11-03-2018 08:44 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Ok you donít get it.....as evidenced by making excuses for what you did.
You did something very unsafe.

The CAPTAIN is the one who is responsible. Period
Your decisions MUST always be made with safety in mind first. You failed to do that and were pressured by another person to take guests on an unproven to you boat you had never previously tested. You should have said no.

So what is was a lake .
so what it was calm.
So what it was good weather

You took out an untested boat you donít know well with passengers and endangered everyone. Had someone gotten hurt or injured in this escapade who do you think would be held liable?
YOU WOULD

Thankfully nothing really happened. You get a second chance. If you donít correct this poor judgement decision starting by owning it , you will repeat. The water is not forgiving, not prejudiced and should be respected. If not your life....than others.

Sorry to be so blunt....b

MikePNJ 11-03-2018 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chef2sail (Post 2051561872)
Ok you don’t get it.....as evidenced by making excuses for what you did.
You did something very unsafe.

The CAPTAIN is the one who is responsible. Period
Your decisions MUST always be made with safety in mind first. You failed to do that and were pressured by another person to take guests on an unproven to you boat you had never previously tested. You should have said no.

So what is was a lake .
so what it was calm.
So what it was good weather

You took out an untested boat you don’t know well with passengers and endangered everyone. Had someone gotten hurt or injured in this escapade who do you think would be held liable?
YOU WOULD

Thankfully nothing really happened. You get a second chance. If you don’t correct this poor judgement decision starting by owning it , you will repeat. The water is not forgiving, not prejudiced and should be respected. If not your life....than others.

Sorry to be so blunt....b

And this is why I love internet forums.

I understand the responsibility of being a CAPTAIN.

I was not making excuses, I was giving reasons for my judgement call.

The "lake" I was on has a depth of 7-12 feet maximum. The weather was beyond calm. I wasn't sure we would have wind to sail. Temps were in the 70's.

Nobody was at risk of losing their life. At max a 100 yard swim to the shoreline would have been required. I had more than enough life jackets for everyone, throwable float cushions, flares, air horns, whistles, and capable swimmers and a certified lifeguard on board.

The worst case scenario involved everyone getting wet and me having to pay to have my boat retrieved from the lake bed.

I own my judgement call. I was going to go out solo if my friend wasn't available.

It's a 19 foot boat on a tiny, calm, still body of water on the day I was going out.

To everyone with the helpful comments thank you.

TimMarks 11-03-2018 11:36 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chef2sail (Post 2051561872)
Ok you donít get it.....as evidenced by making excuses for what you did. You did something very unsafe.

That diatribe is way over the top, and uncalled for, as you don't know enough details to condemn him like that.

Back OT, I am wondering what the two holes are that the water is draining from in the first pictures you posted of the boat sitting on the trailer.

chef2sail 11-04-2018 01:30 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TimMarks (Post 2051561916)
That diatribe is way over the top, and uncalled for, as you don't know enough details to condemn him like that.

Back OT, I am wondering what the two holes are that the water is draining from in the first pictures you posted of the boat sitting on the trailer.

You are entitled to your diatribe as I am mine. Your opinion is noted.

Proof is in the results. 4 individuals with life jackets on and 150 gallons in an untestedboat.

Minnewaska 11-04-2018 05:45 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TimMarks (Post 2051561916)
......I am wondering what the two holes are that the water is draining from in the first pictures you posted of the boat sitting on the trailer.

As I understand the OP, these were the cockpit scuppers. Is that right?

This would mean that water completely filled the cabin, came up on the cockpit floor and only the cockpit drained out.

That seems odd, not to mention extreme.

Do these scuppers have hoses that lead from the cockpit to the hull? Some do, some are molded in. Looks like the outlet is below the water line, so it too is suspect to have actually caused the leak.

A 1" hole that is 2ft below the surface will flow at the rate of 28 gallons per minute. Obviously, the OP's leak was much smaller or shallower, as they would have never been out for the half hour they describe, with any easily noticeable hole.

JimsCAL 11-04-2018 06:21 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
One additional item in the second pic in your post #12. That is a gate valve (and plastic!) and needs to be changed to a proper seacock.

MikePNJ 11-04-2018 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051561938)
Quote:

Originally Posted by TimMarks (Post 2051561916)
......I am wondering what the two holes are that the water is draining from in the first pictures you posted of the boat sitting on the trailer.

As I understand the OP, these were the cockpit scuppers. Is that right?

This would mean that water completely filled the cabin, came up on the cockpit floor and only the cockpit drained out.

That seems odd, not to mention extreme.

Do these scuppers have hoses that lead from the cockpit to the hull? Some do, some are molded in. Looks like the outlet is below the water line, so it too is suspect to have actually caused the leak.

A 1" hole that is 2ft below the surface will flow at the rate of 28 gallons per minute. Obviously, the OP's leak was much smaller or shallower, as they would have never been out for the half hour they describe, with any easily noticeable hole.

I believe you are correct. Those scuppers lead to holes just below the waterline. To access the back side they are behind a wood panel that blocks the fore side of the lazarettes. There is no reason to have below water through hull fittings on this boat.

There was no water at my feet in the cockpit. Obviously there is a break in those hoses. When the boat was on the trailer it wasn't forward and tilted aft having the water pour out. Once the boat was level those holes were much higher than the water level in the cabin.

I will be plugging those holes and the sink drain.

Thanks

MikePNJ 11-04-2018 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimsCAL (Post 2051561942)
One additional item in the second pic in your post #12. That is a gate valve (and plastic!) and needs to be changed to a proper seacock.

Thanks Jim, yeah that will be removed. No reason to drain a sink below the waterline. That's why we use Purell on board. No sink needed for quick bathroom usage.

MikePNJ 11-04-2018 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimMarks (Post 2051561916)
Quote:

Originally Posted by chef2sail (Post 2051561872)
Ok you don’t get it.....as evidenced by making excuses for what you did. You did something very unsafe.

That diatribe is way over the top, and uncalled for, as you don't know enough details to condemn him like that.

Back OT, I am wondering what the two holes are that the water is draining from in the first pictures you posted of the boat sitting on the trailer.

Thanks Tim, you were correct, Missing something so ridiculously obvious at the time!

tomandchris 11-04-2018 02:21 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I really do not understand why many have the need to go off on topics like this. He asked for help on where the water was coming in. He obviously knew he should have checked the boat out better before he got in it, and certainly before a full complement of people were out on the lake. Then the holier than thou group jumps in and tells the guy who is on his first sailboat how a true "captain" would never make this mistake. It is kind of like going to church for the spiritual aspect and getting a sermon on politics.

Recently saw a quote that has been attributed to many, but my favorite was Winnie the Pooh.
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience?....that comes from poor judgement".

Give the guy as break. How many people here have not done some dumb ass stunt that has put ourselves or others at risk? Or do you lie to yourself about it?

dinosdad 11-04-2018 04:20 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chef2sail (Post 2051561872)
Ok you donít get it.....as evidenced by making excuses for what you did.
You did something very unsafe.

The CAPTAIN is the one who is responsible. Period
Your decisions MUST always be made with safety in mind first. You failed to do that and were pressured by another person to take guests on an unproven to you boat you had never previously tested. You should have said no.

So what is was a lake .
so what it was calm.
So what it was good weather

You took out an untested boat you donít know well with passengers and endangered everyone. Had someone gotten hurt or injured in this escapade who do you think would be held liable?
YOU WOULD

Thankfully nothing really happened. You get a second chance. If you donít correct this poor judgement decision starting by owning it , you will repeat. The water is not forgiving, not prejudiced and should be respected. If not your life....than others.

Sorry to be so blunt....b

Sorry to be blunt , but your a arrogant a**hole, they definitely banned the wrong person , smack would have suggested solutions not stand on top of his dockbox and preach a unneeded sermon.

Seeing winters coming plan on replacing all below waterline hoses , you don't have many so cost will be minimal, all new clamps, put proper seacock(s) on , and seeing you have a trailer sailor when your ready pick a dead day at the lake , leave the boat hooked to the cable on the trailer stay right at the ramp , grab a six pack , and watch for water ingress , if you drink the whole six pack and have no water inside , time to try some maneuvers with someone poking around down below to see if anything happens turning to port/then starboard , centerboard down then up ...

SeaStar58 11-04-2018 04:52 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051561966)
Thanks Tim, you were correct, Missing something so ridiculously obvious at the time!

Mister don't run with the scissors here (you know the guy who usually gets stabbed when the person running with the scissors turns to ask why they shouldn't run with a pair of scissors in their hand).

When I got my current boat which had been sitting for years unattended I started by replacing the rigging but then got my phone and stuck my arm in every access point and snapped pictures of every place I could and could not see reviewing them on a computer monitor enlarged and brightened. Things that looked questionable in any fashion were removed and re-bedded at the least with some replaced. Mine is a picnic boat so it was even harder to inspect under the cockpit with very few inspection ports and no lazeretts that one could open. Having an in transom rudder that exited the hull below the water line I cleaned up the seal area on that, replaced the bedding and added a collar outside where it exited the hull to give it even more sealing area and to reinforce it. After I washed out the bilges I put the bilge plug in, filled the boat to the water line with fresh water and inspected for any drips or damp areas on the outside of the hull and found none. Water did not come out of the cockpit scupper thu-hull when there was only water in the bilge which is as it should be.

When launch day finally came I put it out and tied it to the dock for a few hours while I inspected for any leaks or seepage and finding none then I buddied up with a well seasoned sailor and we took the boat out for a trial and the only event was that 2 senior citizens went out sailing a 15 picnic boat in 15 mph winds coming back with smiles on their faces.

I believe you learned that you have to inspect and double check every hose and fitting on that hull and probably have some bedding and old hose to replace along with some corrections of questionable repairs done by previous owners and possibly a through hull to replace. Each spring when you get the boat ready for the water you will need to inspect those hoses and thu-hulls again. On first launch of the season allow time for the boat to sit at the dock for enough time to inspect for water coming in. Be mindful that plugging a thru-hull that's not bedded correctly is not going to stop it from leaking between it and the hull. Also make regular checks of the centerboard trunk along with the centerboard cable seal, pivot and lock pin areas for leaking or fracturing. Also check the leading edge of the centerboard trunk for any signs of damage as many times the centerboard can slam that area and crack the glass.

Continue inspecting and be mindful of how things are supposed to work and don't arbitrarily start plugging everything as you may find yourself doing a lot of bailing when water splashes in the boat. Its not a lot of fun when a self bailing cockpit doesn't drain and every bit of water that splashes over the bow or rail just builds up around your feet. Note that a water scoop made out of an old bleach bottle (milk bottles are too flimsy) can be a wonderful thing to have on board just in case.

Have fun with it and I believe most here will be looking forward to when you report you've found and slayed the dragon.

Minnewaska 11-04-2018 07:58 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
You donít want to plug off the scuppers. Correct whatever is leaking. They are designed to drain the cockpit, if and when you get water aboard. It will happen. Most drain below the water line.

jephotog 11-04-2018 08:25 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcb (Post 2051561744)
I took both my kids sailing as babies. My youngest is 4 and a half months and she has done lots of protected water sailing.

This is the baby lifejacket I use. Rated 9lbs and up.

I have thought about taking a baby sailing since a racing partner brought his newborn out racing once. The baby sat in his car seat down below wedged between the large pile of crew gear bags. I was wondering if the car seat would float if something went wrong.

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5013-812/Baby-PFD

I am wondering how will this life jacket would work if it was really needed? Has it been baby tested in calm or rough conditions? Does the baby float head out of the water?

jephotog 11-04-2018 08:49 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosdad (Post 2051562028)
Seeing winters coming plan on replacing all below waterline hoses , you don't have many so cost will be minimal, all new clamps, put proper seacock(s) on , and seeing you have a trailer sailor when your ready pick a dead day at the lake , leave the boat hooked to the cable on the trailer stay right at the ramp , grab a six pack , and watch for water ingress , if you drink the whole six pack and have no water inside , time to try some maneuvers with someone poking around down below to see if anything happens turning to port/then starboard , centerboard down then up ...

This in water test is a good idea. I would suggest doing it now instead of waiting till spring. My guess is making all the hoses right will fix the leaking issue, but it would suck to wait till spring to find out the leak is in the centerboard trunk or elsewhere.

chef2sail 11-04-2018 08:54 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosdad (Post 2051562028)
Sorry to be blunt , but your a arrogant a**hole, they definitely banned the wrong person , smack would have suggested solutions not stand on top of his dockbox and preach a unneeded sermon.

Seeing winters coming plan on replacing all below waterline hoses , you don't have many so cost will be minimal, all new clamps, put proper seacock(s) on , and seeing you have a trailer sailor when your ready pick a dead day at the lake , leave the boat hooked to the cable on the trailer stay right at the ramp , grab a six pack , and watch for water ingress , if you drink the whole six pack and have no water inside , time to try some maneuvers with someone poking around down below to see if anything happens turning to port/then starboard , centerboard down then up ...

The right person was banned. He was a multiple offender . That doesnít need to be rehashed and is irrelevant. Guess you are still stewing about that. Give it up.

You seem to be intolerant of others opinions. Whatís inappropriate is calling someone an *******. Try and show some class, if you can. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion within the TOS, which I did.

Others have already mentioned the possible solutions to correct the problems which the OP has found with his boat. It still doesnít take away from the actions.

I hope he can correct the issues and enjoy his Sailboat with safety.

chef2sail 11-04-2018 09:02 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaStar58 (Post 2051562040)
Mister don't run with the scissors here (you know the guy who usually gets stabbed when the person running with the scissors turns to ask why they shouldn't run with a pair of scissors in their hand).

When I got my current boat which had been sitting for years unattended I started by replacing the rigging but then got my phone and stuck my arm in every access point and snapped pictures of every place I could and could not see reviewing them on a computer monitor enlarged and brightened. Things that looked questionable in any fashion were removed and re-bedded at the least with some replaced. Mine is a picnic boat so it was even harder to inspect under the cockpit with very few inspection ports and no lazeretts that one could open. Having an in transom rudder that exited the hull below the water line I cleaned up the seal area on that, replaced the bedding and added a collar outside where it exited the hull to give it even more sealing area and to reinforce it. After I washed out the bilges I put the bilge plug in, filled the boat to the water line with fresh water and inspected for any drips or damp areas on the outside of the hull and found none. Water did not come out of the cockpit scupper thu-hull when there was only water in the bilge which is as it should be.

When launch day finally came I put it out and tied it to the dock for a few hours while I inspected for any leaks or seepage and finding none then I buddied up with a well seasoned sailor and we took the boat out for a trial and the only event was that 2 senior citizens went out sailing a 15 picnic boat in 15 mph winds coming back with smiles on their faces.

I believe you learned that you have to inspect and double check every hose and fitting on that hull and probably have some bedding and old hose to replace along with some corrections of questionable repairs done by previous owners and possibly a through hull to replace. Each spring when you get the boat ready for the water you will need to inspect those hoses and thu-hulls again. On first launch of the season allow time for the boat to sit at the dock for enough time to inspect for water coming in. Be mindful that plugging a thru-hull that's not bedded correctly is not going to stop it from leaking between it and the hull. Also make regular checks of the centerboard trunk along with the centerboard cable seal, pivot and lock pin areas for leaking or fracturing. Also check the leading edge of the centerboard trunk for any signs of damage as many times the centerboard can slam that area and crack the glass.

Continue inspecting and be mindful of how things are supposed to work and don't arbitrarily start plugging everything as you may find yourself doing a lot of bailing when water splashes in the boat. Its not a lot of fun when a self bailing cockpit doesn't drain and every bit of water that splashes over the bow or rail just builds up around your feet. Note that a water scoop made out of an old bleach bottle (milk bottles are too flimsy) can be a wonderful thing to have on board just in case.

Have fun with it and I believe most here will be looking forward to when you report you've found and slayed the dragon.

Good advice, , especially about checking things out for a few minutes when dropping the boat in the water.

paulinnanaimo 11-04-2018 10:09 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I felt compelled to relate a story which originated the day of our first launch over 20 years ago. After splashing our boat in Midland, we motored and then sailed back to Honey Harbour where we would be keeping the boat. Before starting the 3 hour drive home, we went for a bite to eat. Before hitting the road, I suggested that we have one more quick peek at our new treasure. Removing the hatch boards, I immediately could see that the floor was awash.
The OMC Saildrive motor has a drain plug which is opened for winterizing...the previous owner had not mentioned this. The plug was letting water in from the moment the boat was in the water but because the water was flowing into the channel to the bilge, we hadn't seen it. While we were eating, the water overflowed the bilge, at that time the boat did not have an automatic float switch.
Had we not gone back to the ship for 'one last look', our boat would surely have flooded and sunk.

MikePNJ 11-04-2018 10:12 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jephotog (Post 2051562066)
I have thought about taking a baby sailing since a racing partner brought his newborn out racing once. The baby sat in his car seat down below wedged between the large pile of crew gear bags. I was wondering if the car seat would float if something went wrong.

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5013-812/Baby-PFD

I am wondering how will this life jacket would work if it was really needed? Has it been baby tested in calm or rough conditions? Does the baby float head out of the water?

Most child or infant PFD's are Type 1 which most likely can turn an unconscious person head up in the water.

TakeFive 11-04-2018 11:04 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051561960)
I will be plugging those holes and the sink drain.

You seem to want to just plug everything. Why not just fix them correctly?

MikePNJ 11-05-2018 12:17 AM

18 Attachment(s)
The sink drain is a useless through hull hole IMO. In 1983 when the boat was new it might have been a good idea. I don't see the value in having a sink that expels water out through a possible area that could lead to water entering the boat unnecessarily. I have a small head on my other boat and we just use hand sanitizer to wash up with. I could keep the sink with a small waste water tank underneath also. No reason to release the gray water overboard. (Or under board in this case) Also plugging that hole will bypass the plastic valve and I can remove it and free up a few more cubic inches of space.

Am I missing the value here?

The back scuppers where I believe the water entered (I will be removing panels inside to access the drains and check it out later this week hopefully) also don't pose a lot of value. The PO must have used expandable drain plugs for this. They aren't threaded. I've had scuppers lead aft through the transom above the water line which makes tons of sense. That's why I didn't expect them to be facing under the stern.

If you left the boat on a trailer I imagine those drains would let rain water out. I always keep my boats covered in and out of water.

I may use drain plugs and make sure the holes in the cockpit run to the bilge. I also dont mind the bleach bottle idea as an option to bail it out.

Additionally I'm going to replace the hose, the clamps and the line that controls the centerboard.

I want to try and sort some of these issues before the winter. Next trip to the water will only be to check for water entering after I go through it again.

Minnewaska 11-05-2018 06:46 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
It's your boat, but I think you're devaluing it by plugging those off. Most would want them and find the DIY approach as a yellow flag to other less identifiable oddities.

Cockpit scuppers are supposed to allow a cockpit to drain overboard. It has to violate some best practice or code to block them off.

A sink that doesn't drain calls into question why there is a sink installed at all. On many small sailboats, I see it filled with ice and storing beverages for the day sail. A drain would be nice.

Captain's choice, but I would repair them correctly and you'd have little worry. The fact is, unless you grind back a 12 inch bevel, plug and re-fiberglass the hole, anything you do could also leak.

p.s. I'm sure a bilge check will be on your list of things to do at every launch now. I do so every time I return to the boat, either at the slip or at anchor. It takes a second.

Arcb 11-05-2018 07:26 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
1 Attachment(s)
Some thoughts on your plan if I understand it correctly. My 21 foot boat has neither a self draining cockpit nor a self draining sink. The boat has 0 through hulls.

Not having a self draining sink is no big deal. The sink is removable and I just toss the contents over the side when required.

Not having a self draining cockpit is a pain in the neck. It requires frequent bailing in anything but benign conditions. I have both a manual pump and a bleach bottle bailing can, we usually use the bleach bottle. Aside from being a pain in the neck on your boat, having a flooded cockpit would raise the centre of gravity on your boat as the cockpit is raised above the bottom of the hull. So raised centre of gravity plus free surface effect is going to impact your stability.


My thoughts are, no big deal to plug the sink, but potentially problematic and even unsafe to plug your scuppers. Here is a pic of my non self draining cockpit after about 90 minutes of hard rain.

TakeFive 11-05-2018 07:56 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
As Minne hinted, a properly done plug is going to take much longer than a properly done in-kind repair/replacement. Those through-hulls are there for good reason. The scuppers are essential to safety (and required by ABYC standards). Water will get in your cockpit, even with a cover. And when the boat is in use, there are many ways that rainwater or seawater will get into the cockpit. It needs to drain out, or your boat will become dangerously out of balance. Having shifting ballast is dangerous - it always shifts to the low point of the boat, which is the opposite side from where you want it.

Plugging your sink drain is similarly shortsighted. You'll need that sink for a lot more than washing hands. Suppose you do need to get into the bilge with Chlorox bottles or hand pumps to address a leak. Where is that water going to go? Are you really going to walk each cup of water out into the cockpit and throw it over the gunwale? You'll never keep up that way. You would put it in the sink.

There is a lot of useful knowledge here. Take advantage of it. Many of us have different styles and levels of bluntness. If you have a know-it-all attitude, some here will throw that right back at you. After contributing here for 10-15-20 years, people sometimes get that way. That may not be the most effective, but it's human nature. That doesn't mean their points aren't right.

I think you need to start listening more to the advice here. I'm not going to rant too much, but I do think taking that baby on an untested (and overloaded) boat was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Right as soon as I started reading your first post, when I got to that part I was screaming, "Noooooo!!!!!"

PS - You must add a bilge pump.

SeaStar58 11-05-2018 08:28 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
My 15 foot picnic boat has a sink/ice chest which drains thru-hull below the water line which keeps the melting ice from sloshing around and spilling out into the cockpit or bilge and is a very good design point even on a boat without a cabin and as others mentioned it can be a life saver on a boat with a cabin allowing you to bail or use a hand pump to purge water directly into it and out of the boat.

Scuppers below the water line with a proper venturie cap can greatly speed draining water out of the cockpit and get your boat more quickly back in balance after it takes a wave, etc. And electric bilge pump only works if the battery is still functional which may not be the case if its foaming over from getting salt water in it while the scuppers will work constantly and at times better than many bilge pumps especially if you have any forward motion plus they will keep working even if you are incapacitated.

Serious consideration should be given before defeating the safety features built into a boat. The root cause of this incident is more likely poor maintenance and prep and not poor design. That boat is a very well proven design with thousands out of the water.

tschmidty 11-05-2018 09:03 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Nice boat, I always liked the starwinds, solid designs for lake/trailer sailors.

It sounds to me that your cockpit scupper hosts or through hulls are almost certainly toast. On most trailer boats they are plastic thru hulls. Get a couple stainless steel ones, some 5200, a couple new bits of hose and clamps, done.

The idea that your cockpit isn't going to get wet and it will be fine draining into the bilge is pretty absurd in my opinion (no offense) and frankly dangerous. Why would you have a large open surface draining *into* your boat. Boats are meant to keep water out. Just fix them correctly and then you don't have to worry about what ifs (what if it rains while I am out, what if my cover leaks on the trailer, what if my bilge pump breaks or gets clogged.

Plugging the sink isn't my style since I would again just fix it if it was broken. How are you going to "plug" it? Literally a plug in the drain hose? Stuck in the thru hull? Still got a hole in the boat and no reason your plug won't fail like anything else. Best fix is a seacock you can close unless you need it. About $80 gets you a proper marelon seacok/thru hull one and wouldn't take more than a half hour to install. https://www.fisheriessupply.com/plum...s-and-seacocks

Good luck and happy sailing!

MikePNJ 11-05-2018 09:06 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I appreciate the responses and knowledge here. That is why I signed up here. You're never too old to learn. Kicking ideas around and figuring out why helps me learn and maybe can shed some light on things. If I came off as some know it all, that was never the intention. I stated this was my first sailboat and am looking to get as much info as I can from people that do know.

That being said, I also bring knowledge of my own to the table on a multitude of areas.

The baby on an untested boat sounds crazy extreme. To some people a baby in a pool is crazy. (The couple that came on board are Brits and like the Auzzies I'm friends with have, a different view on what they are willing to do or not do) I understand. I have 2 children and they have been on our other boats their entire life. My other boat is basically a floating living room that can accommodate 13 people and has the ability to pull a skier. I also realize the dichotomy of power boat and sailboat. It's the same with power boat and jet ski. Actually jet ski and anything else on the water, everyone usually hates jet skiers (lol) or paddle boarders and fishing boat guys.

Back to the through hull scenario.

The scuppers aft are pointing down to release under the waterline. If the boat is sitting in water won't they begin to collect water in and down into the bilge? With water taking the path of least resistance I'm thinking the water will flow down into the boat and have a constant amount of water that the bilge pump will need to eradicate? I see the value of aft scuppers and wish they exited the transom. (I'm also not running outside and plugging anything until I know why) I don't want water coming in and having to have to be pumped out. Not sure if my earlier post sounded that way.

The sink as a cooler is a nice idea and I've done that in the past but this is a tiny round bowl sink. It could probably hold 2 twelve ounce cans max. I see it more as a place to hold my keys. If I'm using it to drain anything out below the waterline, the length of hose that can hold water is minimal. Then I need to hand pump it out with a valve. I could just stand up and toss it over the side or have a bucket handy.

The bilge pump is a definite with auto float switch.

I'm planning on trailer sailing it but I can already see the time to set up and tear down is substantial especially to do solo. I may slip it after a season of playing around with it. My reason to get it was to learn how to sail and go places my other boat can't go after gaining experience and knowledge on small protected waters.

tschmidty 11-05-2018 09:51 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051562168)
The scuppers aft are pointing down to release under the waterline. If the boat is sitting in water won't they begin to collect water in and down into the bilge? With water taking the path of least resistance I'm thinking the water will flow down into the boat and have a constant amount of water that the bilge pump will need to eradicate? I see the value of aft scuppers and wish they exited the transom. (I'm also not running outside and plugging anything until I know why) I don't want water coming in and having to have to be pumped out. Not sure if my earlier post sounded that way.

The scuppers are a straight hose that goes from the cockpit sole to the boat, they never enter the boat itself. This gives you an idea, except your just go straight down
scupper valve

Which is also why I am almost certain either the through hulls or hoses are cracked/disconnected. The water that is in your boat at the ramp could never have drained where it did *unless* they were cracked/broken. You can test by putting a hose in the bilge and see where the water exits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051562168)
I'm planning on trailer sailing it but I can already see the time to set up and tear down is substantial especially to do solo. I may slip it after a season of playing around with it. My reason to get it was to learn how to sail and go places my other boat can't go after gaining experience and knowledge on small protected waters.

The beauty of having it on a trailer at home is you can knock out these projects easily along with no fees. One thing you might look at is dry storage where you can keep it rigged on the trailer at a marina with a ramp so you just have to hook it up and drop it in the water to go out. A little more time than having it in the water, but you also don't have to worry about the hull getting dirty and/or it sinking!

I always found I was much happier doing a weekend trip with my trailer sailor, go to some new lake, sail watch the sunset and sunrise. It's like camping except a lot more comfortable.

TakeFive 11-05-2018 10:15 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051562168)
...The sink as a cooler is a nice idea and I've done that in the past but this is a tiny round bowl sink. It could probably hold 2 twelve ounce cans max. I see it more as a place to hold my keys. If I'm using it to drain anything out below the waterline, the length of hose that can hold water is minimal. Then I need to hand pump it out with a valve. I could just stand up and toss it over the side or have a bucket handy.

Your boat has a cabin, so you won't be able to just stand up and toss it over the side.

You do not need a pump for the sink to drain. The sink is above the waterline, and if the boat is at rest, gravity will push the water in the sink down into the hose until the water level is at the same level as the exterior waterline. If the boat is moving at a good speed, the Bernoulli effect will actually pull the water down a little lower than the waterline. The seacock is a safety to turn off when leaving the boat to guard against hose or clamp failure. Also, sometimes if waves are pounding the boat from the side, a little water could gurgle up into the sink, so closing the valve is useful in those cases.

Just curious - what brand/model of infant life jacket was the baby wearing? Had he/she ever been in a swimming pool before?

MikePNJ 11-05-2018 10:21 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
2 Attachment(s)
The diagram you attached was what I felt it should look like. I guess maybe I would need some type of check valve at the hull.

This is what it looks like.

MikePNJ 11-05-2018 10:35 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive (Post 2051562186)
Your boat has a cabin, so you won't be able to just stand up and toss it over the side.

You do not need a pump for the sink to drain. The sink is above the waterline, and if the boat is at rest, gravity will push the water in the sink down into the hose until the water level is at the same level as the exterior waterline. If the boat is moving at a good speed, the Bernoulli effect will actually pull the water down a little lower than the waterline. The seacock is a safety to turn off when leaving the boat to guard against hose or clamp failure. Also, sometimes if waves are pounding the boat from the side, a little water could gurgle up into the sink, so closing the valve is useful in those cases.

Just curious - what brand/model of infant life jacket was the baby wearing? Had he/she ever been in a swimming pool before?


Oneil superlight. They are USCG approved for under 30lbs. I also had 2 lifeguards on board, 1 currently certified, the other didn't retest.

I have about 40 lifejackets. Some are different for water skiing, etc. I bring tons of kids on my other boat, also it's a tri-toon on a lake. I've gotten stuck in rain a few times but I don't go out in foul weather with it.

Learning something new every day.

Thanks for the info on the Bernoulli effect. I will be looking into that also.

My cabin is tiny and I'm not that tall but standing up in the cabin I tossed buckets of water out from my shop vac over the side in my driveway.

tschmidty 11-05-2018 10:51 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePNJ (Post 2051562192)
The diagram you attached was what I felt it should look like. I guess maybe I would need some type of check valve at the hull.

This is what it looks like.

Yep those just run straight down, but you can see my point about the fact that water inside the boat should never come out of those. You are going to have to climb back there and take a look at the hoses and through hulls. You don't really need a check valve, the cockpit sole will sit high enough off the water that water will never come up, plus since they point down even wave action won't push water up. I have never had an issue and mine point aft.

Arcb 11-05-2018 11:09 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Adding an electric bilge pump might be a nice addition provided you have the charging and battery capacity to make it count, a lot of boats that size don't. Mine doesn't, and I therefore have no electric pump. Just a portable manual and a bailing can.

As for bailing into the sink, figure a guy who is serious about bailing a boat out is going to be chucking 3/4 of a gallon every 5 seconds. Can your galley sink keep up with that kind of volume? I know on my boat, it would be going out the companionway. The sink is a nice dry place for keys and wallets, if you want to keep it self draining, that's cool. The seacock fix is a nice compromise between the two schools of thought.

The key to keeping a boat afloat is keeping the water on the outside. In your case that probably means fixing up your scuppers and centreboard trunk to work as originally designed. If the boat was originally fitted with an automatic bilge pump, it might be worth replacing, if it wasn't, you might have to drill an extra hole in your boat to fit one...

I am of the school of thought the fewer holes in the boat the better, but in your case, the cockpit drains are critical to the safe functioning of the boat I don't think there is a way around that.

bristol299bob 11-05-2018 11:47 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I think that smaller boats usually have cockpit drains above the waterline. But yours drain below the waterline as do most larger boats. The cockpit sole is above the waterline, water will flow down the scuppers into the lake. You do not need a "check valve". But it is good practice to install a seacock on every below-the-waterline thruhull.

Consider a few failure modes:
- the boat is overloaded and the cockpit sole drops below the waterline: water will backfill from the lake, through the scupper into the cockpit.
- cracked hose from the thruhull to the scupper: water will flow into the bilge
- hose knocked off of the thruhull: water will flow into the bilge.

You attached pictures of the outside of the scupper and thruhull ... I'd be curious to see a picture from the inside, where the hose connects to the thruhull (apologies if you did already and I missed it)

Same is true of your sink. The sink thruhull is below the waterline and the sink is above the waterline. Water drains out (unless the boat is overloaded so much that the sink drops below the waterline.

I agree with others that suggested you fix this properly vs just "plugging it". it's not hard to fix.

paulinnanaimo 11-05-2018 12:12 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Arcb's method of furiously chucking the water into the cockpit is a bit futile if you have disconnected the scuppers.

Arcb 11-05-2018 12:32 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by paulinnanaimo (Post 2051562230)
Arcb's method of furiously chucking the water into the cockpit is a bit futile if you have disconnected the scuppers.

Actually, my method is keeping the water out in the first place. I doubt very many posters here have adequate pumping arrangements to handle prolnged serious flooding at sea.

A good many small yachts have inboard engines with stuffing boxes and are left in the water, often charging on shore power when not in use often for weeks on end. This is very different usage than the typical trailer sailor or dinghy sailor.

paulinnanaimo 11-05-2018 03:52 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Arcb
I know that you would never have a flooded cabin, I was referring to your hypothetical situation only.

Arcb 11-05-2018 04:31 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Paul, totally agree with both your comments. The OPs cockpit scuppers are critical to the boats sewaorthiness. Both from the perspective of dewatering the cockpit and dewatering the cabin (via the companionway).

Maybe I shouldnt quote people when I agree with them ;)

I just dont think the sink is that critical, personally. Also not sure an electric bilge pump is critical. Even high end boats in this size rangelike a Norseboat 21.5 don't come with standard electric bilge pumps.

TakeFive 11-05-2018 04:59 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcb (Post 2051562262)
...Also not sure an electric bilge pump is critical. Even high end boats in this size rangelike a Norseboat 21.5 don't come with standard electric bilge pumps.

As someone who urged OP to install a bilge pump, I never said it should be an electric one. As others pointed out, an electric pump is only as good as the battery powering it.

However, after that OP mentioned possibly keeping the boat in a slip. That makes an automatic electric pump a little more important.

SeaStar58 11-05-2018 05:14 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive (Post 2051562272)
As someone who urged OP to install a bilge pump, I never said it should be an electric one. As others pointed out, an electric pump is only as good as the battery powering it.

However, after that OP mentioned possibly keeping the boat in a slip. That makes an automatic electric pump a little more important.

You should always have a manual means of bailing. Since my boat is a picnic boat with minimal access to the bilge I have a manual pump with a fairly long hose on it so it will be usable through an inspection port if need be along with the plastic bleach bottle scoop however the boat also has full flotation and was designed to be able to sail even if it gets completely swamped. Just shift your crew and passengers as far forward as possible to ensure the rear of the cockpit is above the waterline to ensure the scupper drains the cockpit more quickly. With a little forward motion it works very well to get water taken in after burying the rail during some aggressive fun out on the boat.

In a slip or on a mooring its an automatic electric pump and a solar panel to keep it operating as long as possible. Its no fun to get a call from the Harbor Master telling you your decks are about to be awash and your boat is going down sitting at the mooring.

MikePNJ 11-05-2018 05:28 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I really appreciate the input everyone.

Now that I understand what is going on with those scuppers, I have no intention of plugging them. It was a knee jerk reaction after having to bail out 150 gallons of water in my driveway. (All while standing up and tossing it over the side from the cabin, lol) I thought it was some kind of drain plug issue that was missing.

Especially since it appears to be a simple hose replacement and proper connection fix. The hardest part will be accessing the damaged hoses behind the lazarettes. I'll snap some photos of the fun. I've got a busy week this week with my business in addition to coaching my sons soccer team and a big tournament next weekend. I hope to tackle it some time next week before it gets cold.

Then to get it wet and inspect the hose fix and centerboard inspection. I'm still on the fence with the sink through hull but can see both sides of the story.

I was thinking of going with a deep cycle marine group 24 battery for the bilge pump. I've also thought about a small solar panel to provide power just for the bilge pump. That's down the road though because I'm either trailer sailing it or dry storage and day sailing for next season.

There is one above water through hull that drains from the anchor locker on the deck. It's a very small Danforth shaped locker. I have 2 Danforths of different sizes but they are too large to stow away with the door closed. I switched to a box anchor and love it for my lake. Catches every time, first attempt.

Mike

Minnewaska 11-05-2018 05:50 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Good luck. I’m dying to see what connects the drain in the cockpit to the thru hull. If you weren’t spilling water into the cockpit, when you took the pics showing water exiting those thru hulls, then the connection beneath the cockpit and thru hull must be compromised.

However, I find it surprising they were both compromised. There may be more to what’s going on here that we can follow by written description.

TimMarks 11-11-2018 10:57 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive (Post 2051562150)
Plugging your sink drain is similarly shortsighted. You'll need that sink for a lot more than washing hands.

A better idea would be to replace the thru-hull for the sink and put one in that has a seacock on it so you can leave it shut except when you want to drain the sink (if it doesn't already have one, which I bet it doesn't).

That gives you the added safety you want, and leaves you with the convenience of a working sink.

Plus it is way easier to replace the thru-hull (or add a seacock to a proper threaded thru-hull) than to correctly patch the hole.

TimMarks 11-11-2018 11:00 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051562286)
However, I find it surprising they were both compromised. There may be more to whatís going on here that we can follow by written description.

Dread Previous Owner (DPO) took them off to replace them, but then forgot about them?

MikePNJ 11-11-2018 11:59 PM

The PO was the only owner of the boat. He purchased it new in 1983. I'm the second owner. I'm hoping to get a look at it tomorrow since that will be the warmest day this week with a high of 44 degrees tomorrow. It's supposed to rain on Tuesday and highs in the upper 30's the rest of the week. It's also getting dark by 5pm depending on how quickly I can finish my jobs in the afternoon will determine how much time I can get to look at it. Worst case I get inside and remove the wood panels and get some photos and measurements on replacement hoses if that's the issue. I doubt I'll have time to complete the fix if that is the issue.

New seacock would be a future replacement, Just working on fixing the broken issues if that isn't broken. It will need replacement since it's plastic but if it's not letting water in from there I'll save that project for later.

Minnewaska 11-12-2018 05:47 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I don't know Starwind well enough to know if that would be an original thru hull and valve. It sure looks wrong, at least by today's standards, so it makes me wonder if it was PO work. For starters, you'd want to add another hose clamp below the water line. While hard to tell, from the pic, the bend in the hose makes it appear the barbed fitting coming off the valve may not be long enough to take another clamp.

The good news is, the plastic should be pretty easily removed. Bedding a new one is not time consuming either, other than the "first time figure it out delay".

Good luck. I hope the scuppers present an obvious problem that can be resolved. Looking forward to seeing those exposed pics.

SeaStar58 11-12-2018 08:18 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
You never will really know when you buy an Estate Boat that's been sitting. The deceased may have been in the middle of replacing the hoses but passed before he got the job completed plus there is the added potential of freeze damage if they got plugged up with debris and filled with frozen water while left sitting basically unattended for an extended period of time which could have damaged the hoses and thru-hull fittings to some extent.

Likely you will be more attentive to those hoses and scuppers especially before putting the boat in the water after things thaw out from the winter. The scare you had can be a good thing since it helps the mind retain the memory for a longer period of time.

lat42north 10-23-2019 11:23 AM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
I know this is an old thread, but a solution seems to not have happened/ been posted. So, I have a 1985 Spindrift 19, same hull mold & cabin top, just different interior configuration. I purchased my boat at an auction & it had been raining a lot for weeks before the auction. The boat had at least 150 gallons of water in it but I attributed it to maybe the hatch being left open since forever.
I bailed out some with a coffee can and took it home. At home I put a pump in it and removed all the rest of the water. ( I knew the boat wouldn't leak because none of the water leaked OUT of it on the way home or while sitting) LOL.
Then we got a bunch more rain... a BUNCH! A couple weeks later I opened the boat to start to clean/inspect what I had bought... It was full of water again!, It had been closed up.
The cockpit was full to the bottom of the 7" hatch that the OP posted in a pic. My cockpit drains were plugged. They exit out the BACK of the boat through the transom ABOVE the waterline. I blew them out with an air hose. The starboard side started to drain the cockpit, the port side made a gurgling sound. I removed the 7" screw in hatch to give a look see. The port side hose that leads from the cockpit to the transom drain was split in two.
So that is PROBABLY what the OP is experiencing, especially since his exits BELOW the waterline.
My water (sitting on the trailer) came from all the water in the cockpit either going into the hull where the hose was cracked till the cockpit drain plugged up AND from that 7" screw in port which leaked like a screen! Both of which are fixed now.

Hope that might help someone.

MikePNJ 10-23-2019 01:08 PM

26 Attachment(s)
Here is my follow up on what had occurred in case it helps someone else also ....

The scuppers in the cockpit drained to thru hull fittings out of the transom just below the waterline. When the boat was on the trailer nothing drained out and the cabin was filled with water. The hoses that lead to the thru hull fittings were incorrect bilge pump flex hose. They were cracked and broken. The space was extremely tight to fit the correct hose, I used 90 degree elbows along with the correct hoses and now the water drains out of the cockpit. Same problem would have happened if the boat wasn't covered (I kept it covered through the winter) because those cracked hoses would cause water to enter the aft end of the boat draining lower into the cabin.

I had a great season on the water and learned a bunch. Planning on taking it out a few more times before the weather gets bad here in NJ. (This Thursday is looking good!)

Mike

SHNOOL 10-23-2019 08:04 PM

Re: Crazy first time out on my sailboat today
 
Several things I like about this thread. Over a year later and the OP still responds to the thread, and it was a learning experience for both the OP and those that have come back to this.

Also I will note that the OP lived to sail again, and thankfully is still excited to sail.

Nothing but great things and great attitudes shown here.


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