Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues - SailNet Community
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Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

I recently acquired an Allied Chance 30-30 with keel support/grid issues (it was too pretty a boat to be cut up for scrap). Is this the right place to ask questions about the repair? Post pictures?
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post #2 of 28 Old 02-22-2019
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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

This is the place. What's the problem? Looks like a nice boat, though the swept-back keel levering against the hull/deck joint could certainly do some damage if it bumped into something. Pix would help, but you may need to make 10 posts before you can add any.

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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

I rode shotgun with the late and great Jon Eisberg when he rebuilt his Chance 30-30 after she lost her keel after a hard grounding. These boats are a real mixed bag. Jon sailed Chancy literally all over the place, from deep in the Carribbean all the way to Laborador, that last trip in mid-winter.

On the other hand, these are not easy boats to handle.

Chancy was anything but stock. By the time that Jon got done putting Chancy back together, she had a new cutter rig, a different keel design that had a deeper chord, root and a bulb, and a redesigned interior structure, the skeg was removed and a post hung rudder added, a different engine.

I don't know what happened to Chancy after Jon passed on.

Jeff


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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

Hi Jeff_H and Paulk,

Thank you for the response. Jeff_H, it sounds like you have considerable knowledge of the 30-30. I tried posting pictures but like you said, it seems I have to post several times before I can do it. The boat is on the hard at the Marina. The front of the keel is about a 1/2" separated from the hull and the back is pushed up/deflected about 1/2". The rear 3 or 4 support ribs are cracked and the tabbing separated from the ribs. The middle ribs don't look cracked. It looks like it has been this way for years. My guess is it was grounded or dropped and the lever arm you mentioned did exactly what you would expect. The guy at the marina said he has been looking after it for the last several years in the slip and it has always been that way and never leaked...go figure.

My plan is to drop the keel, cut out the ribs, grind until all looks good, rebuild the fiberglass, and rebuild the ribs. The good news is...I enjoy this sort of work. I think fixing old sailboats is a sickness I have. I'm sure there's a name for it...but it likely can't be shared here.

Jeff, beyond the keel support repairs, I'd like to hear anything else you would like to share regarding this boat. The good, the bad, and the ugly. It is the original configuration.
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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

Here is another pic.
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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

One more try.
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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

Does this seem like a reasonable approach? Additionally, I am wondering about fairing and glassing the keel to hull joint when I am done.
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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

Sorry, I did not see this when you first posted it and then saw it on my phone which was not adequate to tell what was happening. Now that I can more clearly see the pictures I have a number of comments. As you probably know, it looks like all of those frames have been damaged and repaired very crudely. Those repairs also appear to have failed. My sense is that the bottom of the hull may also be delaminated in this area since that kind of impact often does delaminate the hull laminate. If you look at the third picture, on the upper right side of the picture the gelcoat is missing and you can see cracking in the laminate itself. That is a bad sign. It sounds like you basically that understand all of that is possibly the case. It can be done but its not a small job.

You should also carefully check the tabbing at the bulkheads because if this boat had a hard grounding the geometry of the boat would tend to try to pry the bulkheads loose from the hull laminate. If that is the case, this is a basket case not worth fixing. (Even without blown bulkhead tabbing this may not be worth doing since in really good shape and reasonably updated these boats are maybe worth $10,000- 12,000 and it does not appear that this boat is in anything resembling good shape and updated.

But to answer your question, to do the repair properly, you are going to want to remove the rig and keel, and carefully support the boat in a manner where it cannot become distorted. Typically that means creating transverse 'bunks' that are shaped like the hull. Preventing distortion may also include removing the engine, and making sure that all tanks are empty and may mean removing all heavy gear and batteries. It would be easier to work on the boat with it down near the ground so you will probably want to remove the rudder and put the bunks on the ground. It also can be helpful if the boat is placed so it is at least level from side to side if not also fore and aft. You do not want bunks in the area where you are working since it will be harder to detect delamination. You will want to put the boat in a shed or tent the boat to make sure that no water can get in and damage your work before it cures.

Once the boat is properly blocked, you will need to assess the full extent of the damage. It looks like the cabin sole (deck) is screwed into place. The cabin sole should be removed so that you can adequately evaluate what you are dealing with. Probably as the next step after that, the existing transverse frames should be removed down to the hull laminate. Try not to grind any more of the laminate than is necessary to get the frames out and initially you may simply want to cut the frames of an 1/8 or 1/4" above the bilge. The idea is to be able to see the hull laminate if at all possible and grinding the surface will make that harder.

Jon's boat was the prototype rather than a production version so she had been hand built therefore was easier to disassemble. Beyond that some of the 'dismantling' had been done by the grounding, and subsequent rolling in the surf. He took out the bunk faces (vertical face of the bunk rather than the flats) and bunk flats out. (I think that the bunk faces may have been molded in on some of the production boats. His were not) If the bunk faces aren't tabbed to the hull or the tabbing is shot, they should definitely be removed.

Then you need top start tapping out the bottom carefully listening for delamination. If you decide to remove the gelcoat from the bilge use a chisel and try not to gouge the laminate so that you have half a chance of seeing cracking in the laminate itself. It would not surprise me to find that the delamination extended several feet forward and aft of the keel area. Now its time for measurements. I would build a plywood template of the outer keel stub that will allow you to carefully bore the keel bolts holes when you are done glassing. I would carefully measure and record the thickness of the hull through each of the keel bolt holes. I would carefully measure the length of each keel bolts with a nut and washer in place to determine how thick you can make the glass and still get the nut and washer fully on the bolt.

In any event, once you have carefully measured and decided how far the delamination extended, then its time to start cutting away. I would try to cut down to the delamined layer in a manner that left some of the outer hull intact so that it could serve as a mold for the interior glass work. Then you will still need to grind a taper out of the laminate around the edges past the delaminated layers. I would want several lay-ups that extend past the taper for safety. Personally I would use epoxy for the repair since this will be a very critical secondary bond.

In Jon's case he installed transverse frames and added longitudinals as well. The longitudinals occurred somewhere near the bunk faces and extended well forward of the mast step. Jon's transverse frames were taller than the originals and he built up the thickness of the laminate in the bilge area, but he had a custom keel and so he could specify extra long bolts. When he put the boat back together the bunk faces were tabbed to the longitudinals and the flats to the hull for additional strength. It was a big job.

There are some pictures of Jon Eisberg's Chancy here: https://www.sailnet.com/forums/other...e-30-30-a.html Take a good look at the rudder redesign. The original skeg failed in the grounding and took out a piece of the hull. This was the redesign we came up with.

There are a lot of photos of Chancy on Photobucket as well http://s268.photobucket.com/user/jon...?sort=3&page=3,

There is a pretty good picture of the custom Keel in the photo in Post #79 of this thead: https://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...ing-today.html That keel was made by Mars Metals in Canada.

Jon said that the new keel and rudder transformed the boat from being a bit cranky to much nicer to sail. The taller rig allowed smaller headsails making her easier to handle as well. After the changes she balanced much better and was a lot more forgiving. She was a lot more stable, had a shallower draft, and tracked better as well. Jon made some epic voyages in that boat. Jon tended to load her very heavily since he was known to say "screw it" and take off for a 1200-1500 mile leg to some quiet corner of nowhere.

Frankly Jon had a love-hate relationship with the boat. From almost the day that I met him, he would send me listings for some boat that had caught his imagination. We would kick it around and pretty much agree that most of the boats that he looked at would sail better and be better suited than Chancy.

In the days and weeks after Chancy was wrecked, once the whole tragedy had sunk in and the shock began to slip away, he seemed to almost have a sense of relief that he could take the insurance check and buy the boat he always wanted. But then pretty quickly Jon made the decision to rebuild Chancy. He was always a little vague about why he chose to fix her up, and at one point after a very long phone call where we were going through what was involved in putting the old girl right, there was a pause in the conversation and he said we will talk again once he had time to think it through and uncharacteristically got off the phone. Next time we talked the conversation was back to the technical issues involved. He once made a vague reference to the old girl shared some great adventures and he hated to see her junked. But that was all he ever said that suggested a motive about why he chose to rebuild her.

Before the rudder and keel change, she was squirrelly downwind, tender and a tough boat to sail on a beam reach or a following sea. She always pointed well. These were boats that were designed to have huge genoas and spinnakers that were hard to tack and trim. They were slow downwind and reaching. They could round up without much warning. They had an odd motion rolling from one a quick stop on the topsides to the other. They are contradictory to everything that we know about what makes a good offshore cruiser or what makes a fast forgiving boat, but she took Jon from Labrador to the Caribbean and back again and its the back again that I think garnered Jon's loyalty to her. But Jon was a hell of a sailor, and as I would tell him that when he was alive, he arrived despite Chancy's bad manners and not because of them. I am not sure that he always agreed.

I must say that this brings back a lot of memories and that if this seems too much about Jon, its because I really miss my old friend. He left us way too soon.

Jeff
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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

Jeff H,

Thank you for the advise, frank assessment of the Chance 30-30, and stories about John and Chancy. From what you have said and what I've read from others, you were blessed to know John.

I will follow your guidance here to diagnose the extent of damage. Do you know the approximate hull thickness at the keel bolts?
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Re: Allied Chance 30-30 Keel Issues

Hi Jeff,

Regarding John and his decision to fix Chancy, such things are hard to explain, they go beyond reason and good financial sense. Take me and this Chance 30-30 for example... I just didn't want it to get scrapped, it was too pretty.

It has spent most of it's life on Lake Superior. I plan to fix the keel properly, leave the boat in it's current form, and sail it. Beyond that, it's any ones guess. If it's like most of my projects, I'll spend too much time and money...and have a great time doing it.
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