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post #111 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
Yes, and no.

Although the side deck feels dangerous to some, how often does someone fall off, to windward, while moving? Nearly never.

They fall off the bow or are washed out of the cockpit, almost always while distracted by a task. They also fall to leeward.

I'm not at all convinced the centerline is the best location, particularly not on the forward half of the bow. It feels safer, but the physics and history do not support the assertion. People fall downhill. I do believe in ending the jacklines well short of the bow and stern, about 4-5 feet.
Good points. Still, there have been times, when the deck problem is on the leward side or downwind rolling doesnít really provide a high side. In the end, where ever the jackline and tether are run, one should not be able to reach the water, if at all possible.


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post #112 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

My jacklines go inside the shrouds and stop at the inner forestay.

I clip on and walk the high side.
When forrad at the mast I clip onto the shrouds or, beter, the inner forestay.

The idea is that I cant fall overboard.

In the cockpit I have a circle of dyneema loosely around the base of the cockpit table and the wheel. I can clip on at the companionway and move all round the cockpit, again not long enough to fall out.
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

I think the high risk times are going forward and also when doing nothing.
Going forward you maybe looking around to figure out what’s wrong, stiff and unuse to movement from sitting for a spell, distracted from worry, if carrying tools you may haven’t figured out the best way. etc.
I’ve had occasion to go floating up when sitting with my legs on either side of the bow but you have the stay above you and you’re clipped so other than getting soaked and needing to hold your breath I don’t think it’s as dangerous as going mob when you are moving.
I think you get placid. Even in sporty conditions it gets to be the new norm so by the last hour of your watch or if you’re a mom and by the third hour since setting out you’re enured to it. Don’t think many of us are at risk of being washed out of the cockpit into the Southern Ocean but still think those brain on autopilot or off times present a risk. Doesn’t matter if you’re snoozing, reading or looking at a screen every 10 or 15 minutes in a empty ocean. Think these times risk is increased or decreased to some degree by the design of the cockpit.
Old boats had very small, deep cockpits. Given drainage was by scuppers the well needed to be small. You got protection from the house, the structure of the cockpit and sometimes weatherclothes. At the helm there was structure behind you and a stern pulpit. New boats have cockpits that drain from the back. There are multiple advantages to this but often at the helm there’s often nothing behind you but the two wires of the lifelines. With the delightful fold up stern platforms there’s truly nothing behind you.
If you’re at the high side wheel you can’t see the slot. At the low side can’t see what’s coming from windward. It’s nice to go back and forth. Like Minnie’s solution but often that’s not practical and you need to unclip and re-clip. Wonder how people handle this?
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post #114 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

I went overboard many years ago when I was going to change sails - back in the days of hank head sails. Boat had motor on moving slowly. Waves were insanely confused, short and high. I was clipped to the lee toe rail aft of the cleat. I had tied the sail bag around the cleat and then the bow dropped into a trough and came up on the next wave. I was thrown into the air. Then the bow went down into the next trough and I was pulled down by the harness but landed over the lifelines and in the water. YIKES.

I was being pulled through the water... but the rail was rather close to the water and the tether was over the life lines and then down to my harness. I was never completely submerged because the harness length and it going over the live lines. I was able to grab a stanchion base and throw my leg on to the deck, hook another stanchion and squeeze myself under the lower life line. I had to re attach the tether... and then get back to the cockpit... get the wet gear off. It was Fall! Scary but saved by the harness. Should have hooked a tether to the windward side and probably couldn't have been thrown overboard. Two points of attachment!

pay attention... someone's life depends on it

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post #115 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

I've had a few women on-board for long passages... and, generally, I know its politically incorrect to like women nowadays... but they go freaking beresk when they see a dolphin or whale! All thoughts of safety fly out the window as they race up to the pointy end and jump up and down and cooo and giggle at obese grey blobs.

So theres a hard a fast rule: Never go forward to see a dolphin unless someone else is on deck... and you must be be clipped on. (The other rules are: Log position of critter, who saw it first, type of critter and have we seen that species before... also needs to be found in the Whale and Dolphin identification book, dated and location).

It mystifies me how after passages of thousands of miles Dolphins get more lovin than the hard working skipper It sux!


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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
You don't get to choose your wind speed/sail configuration in a MOB situation, or at least most people don't. Are you proposing backwinding a 150 in ANY case on any boat or must one completely change tactics by your little chart above? You can't have it both ways.
Every sailor should know that one usually carries more sail in light conditions and less sail in heavier conditions when close-hauled.

When a sailor claims that one should be able to heave to with whatever sail they can close-haul with, other sailors should understand what this means.

I can't explain why you don't seem to understand.
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Problem is we do understand and have found hoving to an inadequate technique for the vast majority of mob recovery. Please address post #98 and the myriad other posts that clearly explain why this is. Until you do so it appears you have comprehension issues.
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post #118 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

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Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
I don't really understand the obsession with "holding station", not that heaving to WILL hold station, you are still drifting!
I don't believe there has been any "obsession" posted.

If you mean that you don't understand why some believe holding station is important during MOB recovery, my answer is so that it makes it faster and easier to retrieve the MOB with less risk of injury or death. Pretty important stuff.

Heaving to does "hold station" to a far far greater degree than leaving the helm not hove to.

I don't believe anyone suggested the boat does not drift while hove to. On the contrary, I and others have indicated so numerous times.

Drifting slightly when holding station is not detrimental to MOB recovery, especially when one considers all of the other benefits of being hove to versus not.

Quote:
In my mind, the most important thing is to be maneuverable enough to get a line to the victim.
I believe all of the elements of the MOB procedure are critically important.

Failing to successfully execute any one, could result in total failure, MOB loss, loss of life, or injury, that could have been avoided.

The first and very important element is to yell "Man Overboard" so that everyone aboard is alerted and the procedure can be executed from the rote memory gained by practice.

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Once the victim is attached to the boat, who cares if you are drifting, since the boat and victim are drifting together!
Most sailors with experience in open water rough conditions know this could not be further from the truth.

The boat and anything near it can be completely out of sync with respect to wave action.

This is why one cannot go near the stern.

The transom can come down, while the MOB is coming up, and split their head open like a water melon.

Also drift due to wind or water, can vary between boat and MOB depending on hydrodynamic drag related to each.

If you are the MOB, you will definitely care if the vessel is not held on station / hove to, and you suddenly find yourself drifting down wind at any speed. You will have to make the choice of letting go of the life sling, or wriggling out of it if you can, so as not to drown.

Quote:
At that point 100% of your effort can be focused on getting the mob out of the water.
I disagree.

If the boat is not hove to, someone has to remain at the helm to avoid drowning the MOB by dragging them through the water.

If there is only one other person aboard or who is not incapacitated, 0% of the crew is available to assist the MOB, if that person must hold the boat on station to avoid killing the MOB.

If that person does leave the helm and the boat is pitching and rolling because it is not hove to, now some (perhaps most) of their effort has to be expended to keep balance and stay on the boat themselves.

If the boat is drifting rapidly (because it is not hove to), now a lot of their effort has to be expended to drag the MOB to the gate and hoisting gear, or just hold them to the boat.

Do they have enough balance and strength left to retrieve the MOB successfully?

If the boat was hove to, they would have to expend less effort to fight these elements, and could expend more effort on MOB recovery.

Quote:
If you are fortunate, it is a simple matter of getting them to the boarding ladder.
As I stated previously. However the chances of being this fortunate in anything but warm fair weather, can be slim, and diminishing with conditions.

Do you base your procedure on retrieving MOBs in fair weather only, or any conditions likely to be encountered?

We do the latter.

We do not practice a fairweather MOB only procedure, but rather a procedure likely to be successful in any condition we may find ourselves in.

I don't want to lose my crew because the wind is over X knots or waves are over Y height. I believe it is good to be able to return all crew to port every time, regardless of conditions. I never want to face a grieving family because a member of my crew was lost needlessly. Please learn to heave to and practice it.

Quote:
If the victim is hypothermic and unable to climb out on their own, things get more difficult, and that's where lifting systems come into play.
It is not necessary that the MOB be hypothermic before they cannot affectively assist their own recovery.

It could just be that they are cold, and their extremity motor ability is lost. This happens long, long before hypothermia set in. Other reasons they may not be able to assist effectively is due to injury, or clothing filled with water, as previously stated.

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This obsession with heaving-to has me baffled.
Understanding the importance of heaving to is not an "obsession". If you understood the importance, you would not be baffled.

Quote:
As a coastal sailor I have NEVER had occasion to do such a thing in the 30+ years I have sailing.
What can I say?

Most learn the importance and benefits of heaving to very early in the development of their most basic sailing knowledge and skill development.

Perhaps you need a basic sailing refresher course?

I suggest using the internet to look up information about heaving to. Some will talk about its importance (Skip Novac for example) as a heavy weather survival tactic. Others will talk about it's importance to make a cup of tea, go take a nap, or await better weather to enter a port or reef cut.

Quote:
Yes I understand the concept, but I have always viewed it as a survival technique you would use if you were caught out in a storm in the open ocean, and you just need to ride it out. I cant think of any other use for heaving-to in my world.
This is what causes me to disbelieve you have the sailing experience claimed.

Every experienced sailor should be able to think of lots of reasons for heaving to.

Those who actually do understand the concept know that heaving to is very effective to slow and calm the boat to make any of the following common procedures aboard easier and more successful:

1. Execute a MOB recovery.
2. Prepare a meal.
3. Fetch a beverage.
4. Use the head.
5. Effect repairs.
6. Put in a reef.
7. Attend to any vessel needs requiring or more easily executed in calm.
8. Take a rest.
9. Render first aid.
10. Avoid entering a poor weather system.
11. Avoid entering an unknown port or anchorage in darkness.
12. Wait for the start of the next race.
13. etc. etc. etc.

Quote:
I cant think of any other use for heaving-to in my world.
This is why I find it very difficult to believe you actually do understand the concept or have the degree of sailing experience you claim.

Every sailor should understand the benefits of, and conditions where, heaving to is useful.

It is a basic skill like tacking and gybing, that every sailor should be able to execute instantly, when ever to do so would serve them.

Quote:
That's not an option when you are near land or reefs.
Any sailing maneuver that cannot be executed safely without running aground is not an option if they will run aground, unless the maneuver is to intentionally run aground (which can be a valid tactic in very unusual circumstances, such as to save a vessel from certain sinking).

Fortunately, I have never had to do this, but based on my knowledge, skill, and experience, I can think of where even this tactic could be useful.

Actually one can heave to near land or reefs, and possibly should, if the leeward drift will be away.

Last edited by boatsurgeon; 03-24-2019 at 04:58 PM.
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Please address the situations of post #98.

Please understand most cruising is not done hard on the wind. Please understand once hove to maneuverability is lost.

Please realize multiple posters have attempted to use your technique (and they know how to hove to btw) and have found it unsuitable.

Please realize the tread is to no longer use hoving to as a storm technique but only for comfort in mild to moderate conditions.

I donít understand why youíre having difficulties in accepting this and continue to not address the specific situations where hoving too is inappropriate nor the failures of the technique due to absence of maneuverability. You have yet to do anything but obfuscate.

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post #120 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Problem is we do understand and have found hoving to an inadequate technique for the vast majority of mob recovery. Please address post #98 and the myriad other posts that clearly explain why this is. Until you do so it appears you have comprehension issues.
I actually am having difficulty comprehending your posts as they seem disjointed and filled with poor grammar. I understand this is highly likely if your first language is other than English, and am not faulting you for it. I am just explaining why comprehension of your posts may be difficult for others.

Actually many here do not seem to have even basic knowledge of how to, or when to, heave to. It seems to me that at least some are misrepresenting their actual knowledge and skill level, as I believe every experienced sailor should know this.
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