Man Overboard equipment and procedures - Page 13 - SailNet Community
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post #121 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatsurgeon View Post


Also drift due to wind or water, can vary between boat and MOB depending on hydrodynamic drag related to each...



Fortunately, I have never had to do this
Regarding the first part. When under power and head to wind, you can station keep off a person in the water. The boats drift rate will naturally be faster than the immersed person therefore, by applying throttle against the wind, you can match the speed of the MOB, and use your rudder to vector the thrust off your engine to maintain control.

Your immersed person will drift directly down wind.

When hove to, many of the sailboats that I am familiar with will slice arcs through the water: forward and down wind, with a resultant vector somewhere other than directly down wind.

So not only is the hove to boat moving at a different speed than the person in the water, but it is going in a different direction as well.
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Last edited by Arcb; 03-24-2019 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Clarification.
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post #122 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

BS I was a professor at Boston University and had a teaching appointment at Harvard. I was born in Manhattan nyc. I post while doing other activities and rarely screen my posts. Seems others have no comprehension issues as this is a new complaint.
Your ability to make presumptions is astounding. English is my first language although I was schooled in French and Latin Iím not conversant in them.

I well may have more hours and days hoved to in the last few years than you have had in your lifetime.

Last time coming back to Newport from the Caribbean we lost our window. Chris told us to divert and run nearly due west. Nearly all of the eastern seaboard was involved with not gale force but storm force winds. The Gulf Stream around the northeast was seeing winds to 60 kts. from the north. We followed Chrisís direction and ended up just north of the Bahamas. The frontal system didnít break so we hove to. One could see repetitive thunderstorms over the Bahamas. Occasionally one would drift near us. However the major waves came from the huge weather system sitting off the US coast. We sat for a little over 7 days hove to. We remained in light air <10 kts. but occasionally winds from the thunderstorms would come through. With the thunderstorms wind waves on top of the swell would come through. They would knock the bow off so you needed to hove to again. Or a big wave from the distant storm would require you to sail a bit then re hove to. This occurred times a watch. Reality is unlike my prior tayana or various cape dories or even my psc high aspect bulbed fin keeled boats require adjustments to remain hoved to. As previously noted I frequently hove to my prior boats. I have found that the fastnet reports have changed my thinking about hoving to as a storm technique. I was caught in a storm while in the gulf of Maine on a Hinckley pilot. Thereís no question in my mind that drogues or even warps are preferable to hoving to in storm conditions from that experience. That boat was easy to hove to.

Iíve reread read post 98. Please tell me what you donít understand and Iíll endeavor to help you through it. Otherwise please address the salient features. Seems youíre stuck in 30 year old thinking and stuck on one imaginary scenario. Unfortunately thatís an alternative reality for most of us. Then thinking of mob the KISS principal should enter in to it. The complexities of raising sail in order to be able to hove to or come out of a hoved to situation in order to approach closer to the mob has yet to be addressed by you.

Again please go through the numbers and address the scenarios delineated in post 98.
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Fence Post, meet BS.
BS, may you two live happily ever after
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post #124 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

OK, I certainly don't expect any naysayers in this thread to publicly admit the error in their MOB procedures.

For any possible lurkers, I hope you take something away from all of this.

Please note the number of posters who described dousing sails and motoring upwind to pick up the MOB.

I absolutely concur that this may work in fairweather conditions if the water is warm and the MOB is in a swimsuit, or there is sufficient crew aboard that know how to haul the MOB back aboard.

However, on a short-handed boat, in moderate to heavy conditions, cold water, injured MOB, or wearing cold weather clothing and foulies, this MOB plan is doomed for failure.

Note how many of these posters confirmed this, predicting in advance that in anything worse than fairweather, the MOB is likely to be a goner.

When asked the very simple question, "How will you keep the boat from drifting away to leave the helm to assist MOB recovery?", not one had a valid answer.

How can I know the answer to this and others not?

I can only communicate what I know, what we do on our boat, and what I recommend others do.

The answer is simple.

1. Leave the sails up.

2. Loop around the MOB with the life sling to assure they can reach it.

3. Heave to, to stop the boat, make it stable, and enable the helmsperson to assist with MOB recovery.

There is absolutely no point having some "captain" on a short-handed vessel, standing at the helm playing the wheel and throttle to hold the boat beside the MOB in moderate to heavy conditions, barking orders to hoist the MOB aboard, if there is nobody else aboard capable of doing so.

The captain may have to assist or solely perform the MOB recovery, away from the helm, and the only way to do it short-handed, safely, in moderate to heavy conditions is to heave to.

Based on our various MOB drills, attempting to pick up a MOB in moderate to heavy conditions short-handed, by dousing sails and motoring up, is not likely to work, as the others have already accurately predicted.

I believe our MOB procedure "heaving to" will work in any conditions likely to be encountered. As mentioned, we have executed the procedure with real people in conditions up to 12 knots and 1 metre waves. We have simulated it with MOB drills in much worse. It works.

Remember you heard it here from Boat Surgeon.

Try it out for yourself.

When you see how well it works, practice it.

Your crew's life may count on it.
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post #125 of 142 Old 03-24-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Please respond to post 98. None of your posts address those common scenarios.
Please realize even with no main up or a headsail out on a pole stopping the boat, throwing off sheets if necessary and turning on the engine takes seconds. In all of them hoving too would take minutes and in some quite a few minutes.
Most cruisers spend less than ~20% of their time hard on the wind where flicking the helm over is all that need be done.
In fact would venture to say they spend more time motor sailing. Tell me how do you hove to with no main or just the main up.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious your intransigence has no substance to justify it. I will continue to point out that your universal answer is not reality based because IT WILL KILL people in any of the scenarios of post 98 as well as making bringing the mob close enough for recovery impossible.


Address the issue of close approach and scenarios of post 98. Repeating the same diatribe already shown to be inappropriate in the majority of situations adds nothing to this discussion.

I’ll add another where hoving to isn’t the answer. Going down wind at hull speed or surfing. Some one falls off. You hove to. They are now a significant distance to windward. How do you get to them?

In short anyone with a modicum of intelligence can conjure up a host of situations where hoving to would not be helpful and a very few scenarios where it might be helpful for a very brief time. It seems your practice runs only occur at one point of sail with both jib and main up, no poles and no preventers. Even when my current and prior boats had both an unencumbered jib and main up if on a reach or run it took a change in course then a fair bit of trimming before you could hove to. Given most sailors avoid beats not being on a hard beat is common.
It’s striking you have yet to address post 98 nor the maneuverability issue. Please do so in your next post. Add in what to do when the mob event occurs while going rapidly down wind. Explain how motoring to them is slower then tacking to them. Explain why a boat can’t power with the sails up and sheets off. Explain why you can’t roll up a jib while powering back to them. Explain why you can’t free the main halyard.
Drills are good as the first steps should always be the same
Mob button, mom released, stop the boat. But then hopefully you have a working flexible brain and will do whatever effects a recovery as rapidly as possible. As a couple who have practiced the various techniques motoring to the mob is the technique most appropriate most often. For the reasons clearly stated by me and others it’s rarely hoving too. This year we’ve been sailing in winds averaging high teens to low twenties. Other then when on a beat hoving too puts us to far away from a mob as to throw them a life sling. Best we can do is a tight circle under power while dragging it where it gets right to them as shown on the container.

BS it is what it is. G-d bless your little heart and feel free to hold to your position but realize you have only one arrow in your quiver and there are a lot of soldiers out there.

s/v Hippocampus
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Last edited by outbound; 03-24-2019 at 11:51 PM.
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

BTW a validated technique in heavy conditions is motoring. Weíve used it for squalls and the brief times you need to pass through compression zones. Works nice. Rolling up a jib and/or freeing the main halyard takes seconds and you donít need any help. Easy to do by yourself so you donít need to wake anybody up. Main halyard is on a powered winch so a snap to put it back up. The main is left at the appropriate size for the general prevailing winds so youíre right back to where you started.

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post #127 of 142 Old 03-25-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Note to all. As this thread is about safety I will step in with the Moderators hat:

If one person has an opinion and many others have a different opinion the minority opinion holder needs to check if theirs is correct. If its a matter of safety you need to double.

I am time poor for a little while, after which I will do some research on valid MOB methods.

At this stage it would be nice assist the forum with your ideas BACKED UP with a link to previously formalised thoughts somewhere on the net

Please, if you have the minority dissenting opinion, or the majority, please do not make statements like this:


Quote:

Actually many here do not seem to have even basic knowledge of how to, or when to, heave to. It seems to me that at least some are misrepresenting their actual knowledge and skill level, as I believe every experienced sailor should know this.
Finally, may I recommend those wishing to learn from this thread to be extremely careful whose advice they take.


Mark
PS Don't fall overboard!!!!

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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

As per my previous post to discuss valid, and only valid, techniques linked to other formalised thoughts on the net, I offer up US Sailing Orgs procedure

https://www.ussailing.org/news/man-o...ery-procedure/

Quote:
Immediately turn the boat into the wind, if appropriate for your boat and conditions, then tack, and stop/slow the boat. This is the first stage of the ďQuick StopĒ method that revolutionized sailingís ďscienceĒ of man overboard a few decades ago.
.....
Approach carefully and at a controllable speed. The close reach is by far and away the safest point of sail to make the approach because of the ease at which speed can be increased or decreased without making course changes.
It also recommends getting rid of the Jib, and motor on.

Its an interesting read though a bit esoteric at times.

Whats your thoughts and do you have a better clearer bit of writing?

Mark
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Well, who would have thought my post would wind up in such a bun fight! I could do without some of the arrogance and vitriol, but hey, it's the internet, right?

Boatsurgeon, you come across as arrogant and condescending. Perhaps if you learned to check that a bit your opinions might be better received. Please keep in mind that not everybody does the same kind of sailing, and everybody is drawing from a different experience base.

You question my sailing ability because I don't heave-to. Should I question your sailing ability because you have to heave-to every time you have to take a leak or grab a snack?

I have no doubt that you have far more blue water experience that I do, since I have none. I am a coastal sailor. I have been racing sailboats of many sizes fully crewed, short handed and single handed for over 30 years. I have only been cruising for the last 15 years. As I said, in all that time we have never needed to heave to. Not to go pee, not to wait for the next race, not to take a nap! When you race you don't stop! You do whatever you need to do while under way. We take naps while off shift. On my boat if I needed to leave the helm briefly I would simply lash the tiller, (although the new boat has autohelm...looking forward to that luxury!)
We dealt with injuries while under way, we did repairs under way, I have even gone aloft while under way with the spinnaker up. When we did mob drills we dropped the sails and used the engine.

Never hove-to. Not once. Never even saw anyone else do so.

I probably should give it a try sometime, just to see how the boat behaves. Maybe one day I will find a use for the maneuver, but up until now I have got by just fine without it.



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2011 Jeanneau 39i Azura
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post #130 of 142 Old 03-25-2019
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Re: Man Overboard equipment and procedures

Here is the Royal Yachting Association page.

-From what I can tell, it recomends using the engine if one is fitted.
-For both an under power and sailing recovery it recomends furling the headsail. Looks like my cat rig isnt so bad after all.
-For under sail approach it recomends filling and spilling the main to control speed
-it recomends bringing the boat to the person under control
-from what I can tell it only mentions backwinding the jib to help scrub speed when the guy initially goes overboard

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...overboard.aspx
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