Help Select a New Electronics Package - Page 3 - SailNet Community
 11Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 45 Old 05-15-2019
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 4
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

I don't know. Usually, one chooses all the input sources from a list in a setup menu. If there are multiple GPS's, then you choose the one you want that instrument to use. I'd expect them to do this too, but I have no experience with them in this regard.

Mark
SanderO likes this.

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 45 Old 05-19-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,670
Thanks: 2
Thanked 94 Times in 94 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

My latest thinking is figure out how try to incrementally change to the NK2 network.

I have a couple of AIRMAR none Y2K and changing them is simple enough. When I do my old B&G Hornet has no speed data. The same for the wind. So once the speed and wind transducers are changed to N2k the B&G Hornet is doing nothing. The transducer data can be displayed on the ZeusT7 at the cockpit. B&G depth will still / can still work but not part of the network.

Then I need to add the compass... and the Triton2's. and they can be added even on at a time. But this means a new dash panel..

Last piece is a new Zues3, and move the T7 to down below and remake the nav station.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
post #23 of 45 Old 05-20-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 20,165
Thanks: 82
Thanked 573 Times in 549 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

I think I'd have to re-read that a few times to follow. I get the picture that you're going to try to mix and match, new and old equip, with different comm protocols. Sounds like it has potential to be very frustrating.

Just read your old post about having multiple plotters/gps. We have two as well. One is set up to be the master and the other the slave (their terminology, which seems non-PC these days). Only the master needs the chart chip and the slave reads off the master. This is a nice setup, as one can enter their routing on one and it reads to the other. Our master is at the nav station, where I can float plan over coffee, in the morning, before going out to face the elements. The only downside, however, is if there is a brain scramble, the master needs to be recycled off/on, which is down below. Doesn't happen often, maybe every couple of years.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
 
post #24 of 45 Old 05-20-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,670
Thanks: 2
Thanked 94 Times in 94 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I think I'd have to re-read that a few times to follow. I get the picture that you're going to try to mix and match, new and old equip, with different comm protocols. Sounds like it has potential to be very frustrating.

Just read your old post about having multiple plotters/gps. We have two as well. One is set up to be the master and the other the slave (their terminology, which seems non-PC these days). Only the master needs the chart chip and the slave reads off the master. This is a nice setup, as one can enter their routing on one and it reads to the other. Our master is at the nav station, where I can float plan over coffee, in the morning, before going out to face the elements. The only downside, however, is if there is a brain scramble, the master needs to be recycled off/on, which is down below. Doesn't happen often, maybe every couple of years.
Actually No... I intend to arrive a B&G only N2K system with one older Zeus T7 and a newer Zeus3 plotter. The Triton displays are compatible with both.

My present data transducers are not N2k and not readable as far as I understand so all of them will be replaced... depth, temp. speed, wind and compass. I believe there are NMEA 183 to N2K converters and B&G is going back to 183 masthead units with a converter at base of mast

I am struggling with a way to transition from the working instruments I have and the T7 which is N2k but not the latest and greatest. I do not intend a fixed mount plotter in the cockpit and will use the same coach roof "winch mount" that the T7 uses. However the T7 will go below and the Z3 will take the winch position.

I don't do route/waypoint planning ... just enter one waypoint "on the fly" as needed. So if I can simply scroll to the location for the way point and "click" I am fine. Most plotters do that. I presume I can set it from below or from the cockpit.

I am not exploring new sailing waters for the most part so the plotter is really just a device to see where I am and give me data about "getting there".

I am not interfacing AP electronically with plotter. I am the interface. and set the course on the AP informed by what I see on the plotter. Comparing boat speed thru the water and SOG is often a tell about a fouled bottom. And of course current, radar and AIS data overlays is very important to inform navigation decisions. I don't want to scroll thru pages to see what I need.... so a few separate numeric displays with large numbers works for me.

Maybe I am too used to how I use instrument data to change to a different human interface. As I wrote my old instruments work fine for how I sail and were it not for their age and coming uncertain date of demise... I wouldn't be doing this planning. And as a result I want to TRANSITION from old to new not do a one step electronics refit. But I do need to N2k back bone. So I see the first step...
transducers, and Tritons...then the 2nd plotter and radar (very useful but not used much as we are doing mostly fair weather and day sailing). I think my KVH compass can be converted (short term) from 183 to N2K and then replaced with a new N2K.

Money is an issue as well.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
post #25 of 45 Old 05-20-2019
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 4
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

I think you have unwarrantedly convinced yourself that this will be difficult or complicated. Without doubt, the transducers will need to be replaced with N2K ones, but this is as difficult and complicated as it gets for you. If you weren't currently on Hornets (good god, those are old!), then you might have even been able to use your current transducers with a converter.

Once these are physically replaced, you just create a simple N2K backbone by using a length of cable or a bunch of T-connectors, like I discussed earlier. This part is dead easy - the hardest part will only be connecting a power wire to a suitable breaker/fuse, and that difficulty is determined only by how hard it is to access your panel.

Now, your network is just waiting for any other instruments or transducers to be added. To add something, you just connect a single cable between the network backbone and the instrument/transducer. This can be done in pieces, at any time, and to any extent you like.

Your current autopilot won't integrate with anything anyway, so you don't need to worry about it. As for integration of the rest of the instrumentation - they are all sitting on a shared network and are all inherently integrated. Which parts of that integration you choose to use is entirely up to you - they won't take over, or force themselves together, or form cliques, or anything.

Your dash might not be as difficult as you think. I have a sketchy memory of the Hornets, but think they are ~5" square? If so, the Tritons may fit right in with just a simple modification. Ours fit in our old B&G Network places after I just filed out the cutout a little larger.

Your existing compass can be used with a converter, but you will spend ~$200 on a converter, so you will need to decide the relative value vs. new compass.

Mark
SanderO likes this.

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #26 of 45 Old 05-20-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,670
Thanks: 2
Thanked 94 Times in 94 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

I realize that building the N2K is not that difficult. The B&G repeaters... and there are 6 in a row, closely spaced w/ a sailcomp will be replaced by at most 4 Tritons.... certainly not 7.

my plan was to make a 1/2" starboard dash... pre mount the Tritons with their N2K cabling... including a bulkhead connector for the winch mounted plotter whish is plugged in when I sail only.

I assume that the N2K works when devices are REmoved... leaving a T without a drop. and I can run the N2K with only some devices on??? such as have only the old T7 in the evening at anchor or for planning purposes from down below.

This is my concept of the network (wind would have a 183>Nk2 converter at mast base inside cabin.

I have two Airmar thru hulls for the DST and another for a Depth only as I remove the speed when not sailing and I still want depth when at anchor.

Nav station would be a new panel with the single old T7 bulkhead mount.... the new Zeus3 would be the removable winch mount whch has a plug for a dash N2K and 12v.

KVH is 183. I thought the Zeus can act as a converter and accept 183 and turn the data out as N2K on the network????? if so I don't need a converter. An N2K compass is $600/ YIKES
Attached Thumbnails
nav network 2019_page1_page1.jpg   B&G T7 - Crop.jpg  

pay attention... someone's life depends on it

Last edited by SanderO; 05-20-2019 at 10:33 AM.
SanderO is online now  
post #27 of 45 Old 05-20-2019
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 4
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

Jeez, you don't need my advice - that schematic is better than anything I've done.

I completely forgot that you would be translating your compass data through the plotter - you don't need a converter. I like having the compass data on the network independent of the plotter, but mostly because our autopilot needs the compass and yours doesn't, so it isn't as necessary. Yes, N2K rate compasses are ~$600, but wow, do they ever perform. You don't need that because your autopilot doesn't use it, but if you ever change autopilots, you won't believe the performance of the new AP's using a 9-axis rate gyro. B&G's Precision 9 compass even outputs heave and roll data, and their AP uses them in its steering algorithms. It's ability to steer a boat in all conditions is remarkable - it knows when you are rising on a swell and beginning to rotate and surf down its face, and it steers accordingly. I'm not proud - it's better than me, particularly when things get rough. The trickle down is good with B&G - our boat has the steering algorithms and compass data now at the recreational level that the extreme racers did just a few years ago. One can actually get the extreme racing gear, but it costs a lot more. NKE is the only other company as good in autopilots.

N2K works fine with empty spaces. Drops are just potential data - they aren't hardwired in the network from the start. In fact, there isn't even on/off buttons on a lot of the gear - they can be hot swapped at will.

If you haven't already bought the transducers, I'd rethink the DST. Everyone I know with one has had bad trouble with it, and have gone through several replacements in short time periods. We stuck with separate speed and depth, and they have been rugged. Google the DST and you will find lots of problems with them. The good thing about separate depth is that Airmar makes those transducers in several tilted-element styles. If your transducer is located on an angle to the hull, you can get a tilted-element transducer that matches that angle so it will point straight down.

I didn't know B&G were now using a 0183 cable down the mast and doing the conversion inside. This is great. We just bought a LCV Captuers wind transducer that does the same. Our previous one had the N2K backbone running up the mast, but this is heavy and inconvenient if something goes wrong. For example, after many years, we had a termination problem. Since the terminator was at the top of the mast, I had to go up to swap out the terminator. First, though, I had to go up to troubleshoot it to make sure it was that terminator. Now, I keep the backbone totally inside the boat.

Mark

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #28 of 45 Old 05-20-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,670
Thanks: 2
Thanked 94 Times in 94 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

Mark... I don't do much sailing as the AP steers... when it's fun or challenging I may hand steer. Steering for the most part is boring. I navigate to a single waypoint.. and knowing my boat steer the AP to the next heading for a tack... and same for gybes... My AP is a small wheel/helm so it's very much like steering with the actual helm... but most are minor course course corrections... I don't doubt what a more high tech modern compass would do for steering. I simple want a digital presentation as opposed to looking at the binnacle compass.
Obviously if I use the KVH it will need a 183-N2K converter or use the T7 to convert its 183 to N2K.

Good to know that I can install the Ts and the equipment later.. and of course move them around... not that I would.

The newer B&G wind instrument is going to be NMEA 183 because the terminator at the top of the mast gave people too much trouble I am told... so the signal is converted to N2k for the network.

My main cockpit plotter is only on the network for sailing... so it will be plug in... the older T7 will be fixed mount below decks. I can enter waypoint data at either... and view RADAR and AIS on both. I am used to separate data displays with large numbers and will try to do the same... rather than multi line (smaller font) or scrolling (if it exists) data.

I was thinking of a separate always in Depth... and a removable Speed / Temp transducer... as I already have 2 thru hulls. Don't need an DST...

That's it and I hope this system last 10 years because it will outlast me!

I need some recommendations for AIS B. I was thinking Vesper but I really have no idea.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it

Last edited by SanderO; 05-20-2019 at 09:44 PM.
SanderO is online now  
post #29 of 45 Old 05-21-2019
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 2,863
Thanks: 4
Thanked 114 Times in 108 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

I really like our Vesper XB8000 black box AIS (actually, it is blue). It has a NMEA0183/2000 wifi server on it, so all our instrument data is available over wifi. It also has a nice phone/tablet app. Now, we get all instrument data on our computers, phones, and tablets, as well as the AIS data. I can take a phone to bed with me and glance at it if I hear things changing. The Vesper app also has an anchor alarm function, so the phone can alert us to that.

We don't need an AIS screen, because all we want are the targets showing on the chartplotter and all of our computers and devices.

Mark
SanderO likes this.

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #30 of 45 Old 05-21-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,670
Thanks: 2
Thanked 94 Times in 94 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Help Select a New Electronics Package

That sounds like the cat's meow. Thanks.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best Electronics Package? midwesterner Gear & Maintenance 39 07-11-2016 08:48 AM
Full Electronics package plan. Unkle Toad Gear & Maintenance 14 11-13-2014 02:41 PM
best electronics package dszerlag Electronics 16 03-17-2014 12:07 PM
Opinions on total-package electronics brands? scraph Electronics 10 11-15-2009 10:59 PM
Help me select a boat CaptThunder Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 06-14-2009 12:36 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome