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post #21 of 52 Old 06-04-2019
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
You are referring to Sandbaggers. Mystic Seaport Museum has the last remaining original sandbagger 'Annie'. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...mg._-WUp0pt4Is

Sandbaggers were 19th century race boats that were raced by local watermen. They were a big deal in their day. They were not schooners but were sloop rigged and based on the oystering boats of lower New York Harbor. These were very serious race boats in that they were dry sailed and had bottom paint that was graphite rubbed into varnish and then burnished for speed. They carried a scary amount of sail area with their boom and bowsprit extending the overall length of the boat by sometimes as much as 2 or more times the length of the hull. These boats were handled by large crews chosen in large part for their strength. The name 'sandbagger' came from the fact that every time they tacked dozens of 50 lb. bags of sand were physically picked up and moved across the boat to keep the boat on its feet.

In their heyday, sandbag races were widely followed. Working class people would rent livery whitehalls and row out to watch the races. Although they were primarily a New York Harbor phenomena, across the country the results were bet on, and race action and results were literally telegraphed across the country and quickly published in 'extras' (abbreviated copies of newspapers issued to cover breaking news). Major races were followed as closely as the Kentucky Derby or World Series. Its a bit like way that the French follow offshore racing in the Mini Transat, Figaro's and Class 40 race boats today.

Jeff

Interesting as we just saw Annie in person on our trip
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post #22 of 52 Old 06-04-2019
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Don't some water ballast boats use gravity to drain the water from one side to another?
The term water ballast applies to two different types of ballasting systems. In one case there is a tank that is located low in the boat on or near the centerline of the boat, and which is filled in seawater and remains filled whenever the boat is in the water. Those are filled by gravity, and some are emptied by pumps and others by allowing the water to drain as the boat is hauled out of the water.

The other type of water ballast is movable. Movable ballast of any type is not permitted under most racing rules but is permitted under a variety if 'open rules' and on some versions of the old VOR rules. That type of water ballast either uses movable tanks or else tanks that are located on either side of the boat with the water being moved from one tank to the other. Early in the days of open class boats with movable water ballast, the water was transferred by having huge pipes and valves and the water was transferred from the windward tank to the leeward tank by gravity before a tack or jibe. It was a pretty slow way to shift the water, but when you are crossing an ocean or going non-stop around the world, who cares about waiting 10 extra minutes to tack. I believe the newer boats use pumps but I do not know whether these use stored energy or are hand cranked.

Movable water ballast is a nice thing to have. My boat was designed to be raced with a crew of 8 to 10 people. It has two 40 gallon water tanks, one on each side of the boat under the settees. They are connected by 2" water pipes that go to a manifold under the cabin sole. A previous owner mentioned only carrying 40 gallons when he was making longer distance passages and transferring the water from one tank to the other when he had a long beat (days not hours). I have tried that at times and its amazing how much it helps flatten the boat to only have the windward tank full.

Jeff
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

costing a slight bit over a dollar the modern J 99 and the J 121 have a water ballast system. something like a 100 gal. on each side, about 4 crew members worth
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

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Originally Posted by overbored View Post
costing a slight bit over a dollar the modern J 99 and the J 121 have a water ballast system. something like a 100 gal. on each side, about 4 crew members worth
It looks like the J 121 uses a gravity feed system to change the ballast during a tack:
Boat Review: J/121
Quote:
The system is simple to use: just prime one of the tanks using an electric pump—you’ll know its full when the overflow starts gushing out via a drainage port in the transom—then transfer from one side to the other prior to each tack using a set of valves actuated by a pair of short lines set at the aft end of the starboard-side cockpit bench.
Can you imagine getting caught in a gusty wind shift and doing an accidental tack or jibe and ending up overpowered with 800 lbs of ballast on the wrong side of the boat?!?!?
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
It looks like the J 121 uses a gravity feed system to change the ballast during a tack:
Boat Review: J/121


Can you imagine getting caught in a gusty wind shift and doing an accidental tack or jibe and ending up overpowered with 800 lbs of ballast on the wrong side of the boat?!?!?
Typically these systems are designed so that the impact of one tank being full or the other is not extremely noticeable or at least not dangerous. The open class boats have a limit on how much the boat can be heeled when all of the ballast and the canting keel is on one side of the boat.

I often cruise with only one tank full and I hardly notice the 40 gallons except that I point better when that tank is to windward vs leeward in a strong breeze. Of course the J-121 has a lot more water and a lot more sail area.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-04-2019 at 05:44 PM.
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post #26 of 52 Old 06-05-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

It seems the current owner has carefully documented the repairs to the keel and trunk and sent me some of the photos. It looks like a fairly thorough repair job has been done.

In which case, ripping out a perfectly good keel probably doesn't make any sense.

It seems to me, the Cal 20 and the Cal 21 are the same boat, with the main difference being, the Cal 20 has a 900 pound fixed keel and the Cal 21 has a 360 pound swing keel.

The difference in displacements means the Cal 20 has an SA/D of just over 20, while the Cal 21 has an SA/D of just over 29. Should be a fast boat in light air.

However, if I go with some variation of Jeff's tank track idea, then that should mean I am able to keep more sail up and point higher in a greater range of wind conditions, without carrying around a bunch of extra weight in light air and for rowing.

This boat might follow me home tonight.
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
It seems to me, the Cal 20 and the Cal 21 are the same boat, with the main difference being, the Cal 20 has a 900 pound fixed keel and the Cal 21 has a 360 pound swing keel.
The Cal 20 is a completely different hull form than the Cal 21. The Cal 21 has a finer bow and flatter sections aft than the Cal 20. The Cal 20 is a close cousin to the ubiquitous Cal 25 and both were designed to the original MORC rule. The Cal 21 was a later design that anticipated some of the changes that were starting to take place at the time.

If the SA/D is correct, and you wanted to 'turbo' the boat, I would minimally want to add a traveler just forward of the tiller, a high purchase cascading vang, and an efficient backstay adjuster run to within reach of the traveler from either side of the boat. If you start buying sails, I would minimally want a mainsail with a large roach (and masthead flicker for the backstay) or better yet a square head, and if the SA/D is correct, (and I am suspicious that it is not correct), I would add a laminate 110% jib with battens made with a full luff (essentially the leading edge of a #1 genoa) when the backstay is eased that can be flattened with halyard and backstay tension when the breeze comes up. If you want to go crazy on this, I would try to find a used J-22 mast and set the boat up with a prod for a masthead assym chute as well as a 'tweener'.

If you decide to do the movable ballast tank I would be glad to suggest details (i.e. use a pre-made poly tank with the long axis fore and aft, skate board wheels for the trolley, aluminum channel for the hold down mechanism, continuous line for the trolley control lines with hexratchet blocks both ways and pieces of old foam mattress material to prevent the tank crashing and so on)

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-05-2019 at 10:55 AM. Reason: fat thumbs and not enough coffee
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

I see what you mean about the hull shape when I hold images up side by side.

I very likely will have some questions about how to power up the sail plan. Although the current owner has already purchased a new Cal 21 mast for the boat that comes with it, so I may stick with that.
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
I see what you mean about the hull shape when I hold images up side by side.

I very likely will have some questions about how to power up the sail plan. Although the current owner has already purchased a new Cal 21 mast for the boat that comes with it, so I may stick with that.
I would suggest using the Cal 21 mast as long as you do not need to obtain any new sails. But if you do need new sails and you you decide to 'turbo' the boat, then it might be prudent to at least do a quick search for a J-22 mast since it is tapered and has a controlled bend pattern. It should also give you a bit more sail area.

Jeff
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post #30 of 52 Old 06-05-2019
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Re: Another $1 Boat Thread, Water Ballast Conversion

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
and if the SA/D is correct, (and I am suspicious that it is not correct)
Don't forget to add the crew weight (even single-handed) to come up with a real-life SA/D that makes a lot more sense.

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