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post #21 of 36 Old 06-16-2019
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Re: New theft threat

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
If one of the current chart plotter vendors changed the paradigm to offer a brain and peripherals that could be projected to any screen or monitor of the users choice think they would get a large proportion of the market.
They do. Or at least Furuno does, and has done for many years. They offer their plotters in a black box version that connects to all peripherals and drives any screen or monitor. And they have hybrid interfaces for them - the user can connect touchscreens, control pads, keyboards, etc.

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post #22 of 36 Old 06-16-2019
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Re: New theft threat

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
What isn't true? That Apple makes a 13" tablet? That it has the resolution I stated? That it cost 1/3 of the plotter I just bought? That many tablets are larger than many chartplotters?

All of those are true.

Mark
What is not true is that MOST chartplotters cost three times a 13 inch I-Pad
If the one you bought cost $3000+ .well thatís your choice. There are plenty 12 inch ones less than that.

You and your former running mate were/ are/ have been hell bent on this IPad mantra vs chartplotter for a while. Confronting all ,every chance you get , who choose the MFD route. Let it go.

We all have our reasons for the choices we make. Most of us who use our Chartplotters also have I Pads for backups. There nothing wrong either with the person who choose to make the IPad their primary navigation tool. To each his own. Both have advantages over the other as well as disadvantages.

MFD once were super expensive on only a few had them. Now, There are plenty of smaller MFD in the $500-600 range now. They are very affordable for the majority of sail boat owners who are recreational and weekend, sailors. The majority of boaters. They are good for lake sailors, coastal cruisers, blue water cruisers as well. Those who choose the MFD route, do it for many of the reasons stated in the many threads dedicated to them.

Itís senseless to keep beating the same dead horse, but you seem as is history over the years to need to have the last word with me. Have at it, if you must😄😄


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post #23 of 36 Old 06-16-2019
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Re: New theft threat

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
What is not true is that MOST chartplotters cost three times a 13 inch I-Pad
If the one you bought cost $3000+ .well thatís your choice. There are plenty 12 inch ones less than that.

You and your former running mate were/ are/ have been hell bent on this IPad mantra vs chartplotter for a while. Confronting all ,every chance you get , who choose the MFD route. Let it go.

We all have our reasons for the choices we make. Most of us who use our Chartplotters also have I Pads for backups. There nothing wrong either with the person who choose to make the IPad their primary navigation tool. To each his own. Both have advantages over the other as well as disadvantages.

MFD once were super expensive on only a few had them. Now, There are plenty of smaller MFD in the $500-600 range now. They are very affordable for the majority of sail boat owners who are recreational and weekend, sailors. The majority of boaters. They are good for lake sailors, coastal cruisers, blue water cruisers as well. Those who choose the MFD route, do it for many of the reasons stated in the many threads dedicated to them.

Itís senseless to keep beating the same dead horse, but you seem as is history over the years to need to have the last word with me. Have at it, if you must😄😄
Man, you need a vacation. Pretty much nothing you have written here is true, and you seem to have lost all your memory and basic reading comprehension.

First, I was responding to Outbounds assertion that tablets were too small and low resolution compared to chartplotters. So I gave some factual statements about size and resolution.

Second, you are wrong about prices of chartplotters today. Unlike you, I actually know what I am speaking of because I am currently going through a complete electronic refit from a clean sheet and have done all the relevant research. So let's get some facts straight on pricing (you can look these up).
- 13" iPad pro that I mentioned earlier - $1,300 for a mid-model with gps and cell.
- 12" Furuno TZT2 that I was comparing with - $3,000
- 12" B&G Zeuss - $3,500
- 12" Raymarine Axiom - $3,500
- 12" Simrad NSS - $3,500
- 12" Garmin - $2,800-$4,000 depending on specific model

For the price of the 13" iPad, one would need to drop down to the 7" models for those few companies who sell in this price range. But this is hardly a comparison when the discussion was around screen size and resolution.

If you are arguing that one can get a cheap, small plotter, then fine. But that wasn't what the conversation was about, if you had actually comprehended it. But using your logic, one can get an even less expensive tablet in those sizes that has better resolution. In fact, one can get a larger tablet with better resolution - because we have only been discussing screen size and resolution. However, if we start to talk about radar, then the tablet wins, because those 5-7" plotters can't do radar, where an iPad can in a single instance.

Now let's discuss the third area you are wrong about. You seem to group me with another poster you don't like, and attribute to me a slavish dedication. The reality is that I don't know that person personally, I have disagreed with him on several areas, and avoided most of his more controversial threads. The stick up your rear is that on a single thread I did participate on - and strangely it was to argue against the use of tablets as full-fledge plotters - on that thread, I continually pointed out how wrong and ill-informed you were on many of your statements. This seems to have been enough for you to label me, close your mind, and refuse to look at the facts.

One fact is that I have never advocated using tablets in place of a chart plotter. I have on occasions defended people who were doing so, based on their compelling reasons why it made sense in their particular case. However (and again, you can look this up), I have always stated radar as one of the most important electronics we have onboard, and that I would never give up a robust radar solution. Go ahead and look in the archives - find any evidence that I push tablets over chartplotters. Then come back here and apologize to me. I've asked several times in the past for apologies when your hateful attacks have been proven so wrong, but you have never been man enough to give one. There is always hope.

You are so hateful that you didn't even notice that you were attacking me here for pushing tablets over chartplotters, while at the same time attacking me for purchasing an expensive chartplotter!

Your last paragraph is a weak attempt at sounding like the big man here. In several instances, you attack me with wrong information, then weasel out of being accountable by stating that I need the last word and you are giving it. There is your dead horse.

So I don't expect to hear from you again on this topic. Consider yourself better informed and educated now.

And take a vacation - you sound like you need one.

Mark

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post #24 of 36 Old 06-17-2019
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Re: New theft threat

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Man, you need a vacation. Pretty much nothing you have written here is true, and you seem to have lost all your memory and basic reading comprehension.

First, I was responding to Outbounds assertion that tablets were too small and low resolution compared to chartplotters. So I gave some factual statements about size and resolution.

Second, you are wrong about prices of chartplotters today. Unlike you, I actually know what I am speaking of because I am currently going through a complete electronic refit from a clean sheet and have done all the relevant research. So let's get some facts straight on pricing (you can look these up).
- 13" iPad pro that I mentioned earlier - $1,300 for a mid-model with gps and cell.
- 12" Furuno TZT2 that I was comparing with - $3,000
- 12" B&G Zeuss - $3,500
- 12" Raymarine Axiom - $3,500
- 12" Simrad NSS - $3,500
- 12" Garmin - $2,800-$4,000 depending on specific model

For the price of the 13" iPad, one would need to drop down to the 7" models for those few companies who sell in this price range. But this is hardly a comparison when the discussion was around screen size and resolution.

If you are arguing that one can get a cheap, small plotter, then fine. But that wasn't what the conversation was about, if you had actually comprehended it. But using your logic, one can get an even less expensive tablet in those sizes that has better resolution. In fact, one can get a larger tablet with better resolution - because we have only been discussing screen size and resolution. However, if we start to talk about radar, then the tablet wins, because those 5-7" plotters can't do radar, where an iPad can in a single instance.

Now let's discuss the third area you are wrong about. You seem to group me with another poster you don't like, and attribute to me a slavish dedication. The reality is that I don't know that person personally, I have disagreed with him on several areas, and avoided most of his more controversial threads. The stick up your rear is that on a single thread I did participate on - and strangely it was to argue against the use of tablets as full-fledge plotters - on that thread, I continually pointed out how wrong and ill-informed you were on many of your statements. This seems to have been enough for you to label me, close your mind, and refuse to look at the facts.

One fact is that I have never advocated using tablets in place of a chart plotter. I have on occasions defended people who were doing so, based on their compelling reasons why it made sense in their particular case. However (and again, you can look this up), I have always stated radar as one of the most important electronics we have onboard, and that I would never give up a robust radar solution. Go ahead and look in the archives - find any evidence that I push tablets over chartplotters. Then come back here and apologize to me. I've asked several times in the past for apologies when your hateful attacks have been proven so wrong, but you have never been man enough to give one. There is always hope.

You are so hateful that you didn't even notice that you were attacking me here for pushing tablets over chartplotters, while at the same time attacking me for purchasing an expensive chartplotter!

Your last paragraph is a weak attempt at sounding like the big man here. In several instances, you attack me with wrong information, then weasel out of being accountable by stating that I need the last word and you are giving it. There is your dead horse.

So I don't expect to hear from you again on this topic. Consider yourself better informed and educated now.

And take a vacation - you sound like you need one.

Mark
Like I said....you are so predictable . Making things personal . Thatís your MO with me.

Whatís wrong with you. Why so hateful . You need a time out dude. Or better yet how about just putting me on ignore if I anger you so.

Is this a good behavior to display to other sailors? Do you think your overly sarcastic approach to me encouraged others or new posters on SN to ask questions , or will feel they get vomited on by you if they ask questions that you donít like or disagree with you
Your behavior is antisocial and unbecoming.

Most sailors I know are pretty mellow people. You appear to contradict that.

I donít need a vacation. I just got back from one. A really nice one. Met a couple really nice posters on here too.

There are other Chartplotters than the brands you mentioned or did you convienenly forget to post them. None are 3 times the $1300 I pad . Most are 12 inches but who needs another TV set.

Garmin Echo map $2790

B&G Vulcan $2199

Lowrance Elite $1819

SiTex -$1874

Itís ok. Itís all good. Try and find a better way to channel that inner anger than yapping at the computer screen.

Sorry to others who had to read this , but there is no place on here for snide personal remarks.


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post #25 of 36 Old 06-17-2019
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Re: New theft threat

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Like I said....you are so predictable . Making things personal . Thatís your MO with me.

Whatís wrong with you. Why so hateful . You need a time out dude. Or better yet how about just putting me on ignore if I anger you so.

Is this a good behavior to display to other sailors? Do you think your overly sarcastic approach to me encouraged others or new posters on SN to ask questions , or will feel they get vomited on by you if they ask questions that you donít like or disagree with you
Your behavior is antisocial and unbecoming.

Most sailors I know are pretty mellow people. You appear to contradict that.

I donít need a vacation. I just got back from one. A really nice one. Met a couple really nice posters on here too.

There are other Chartplotters than the brands you mentioned or did you convienenly forget to post them. None are 3 times the $1300 I pad . Most are 12 inches but who needs another TV set.

Garmin Echo map $2790

B&G Vulcan $2199

Lowrance Elite $1819

SiTex -$1874

Itís ok. Itís all good. Try and find a better way to channel that inner anger than yapping at the computer screen.

Sorry to others who had to read this , but there is no place on here for snide personal remarks.
Pot, meet kettle. Guys, both please take a chill pill and have a good day.

Cheers, Uncle Bob the 1st from Sydney Aust.
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post #26 of 36 Old 06-17-2019
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Re: New theft threat

Once members have over about 1,000 posts we expect them to Self-Moderate....

....thusly, herely, we think these two boys can separate themselves to their respective corners, hear the final Ding, put on their robes and retire to the bar together where they can have a drink in comradeship.


Ding-Ding; Gulp, Gulp.


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post #27 of 36 Old 06-17-2019
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Re: New theft threat

Donít recall saying anything about resolution at all. Do recall saying having all relevant data on one screen in a easily read format is a good thing.
Donít recall saying anything about a particular lower size limit but do recall below a reasonable size itís nearly impossible to meet the above criteria.
Iím myopic. I unfortunately have occasion to sail in crappy weather. To date Iíve yet to find a touch screen on anything be it pad, tablet or chart plotter that reliably works. Iíve yet to find a pad/tablet I can read and use at the helm in snotty conditions.
Furuno comes close but also not there yet. Still, wired. Still not customizable to allow what peripherals you choose. Still ridiculously expensive.
Suspect within our lifetimes you will put on a pair of glasses or have implants or be projected holographic images. You will ask or think of what you want to see and there it will be.
The underlying engineering, AI, is well on its way. This compulsion to take hard one or the other positions will be irrelevant. Even now think many use both and will embrace the next great thing. In the meantime just hope the manufacturers stop adding useless bells and whistles to their programs.

s/v Hippocampus
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post #28 of 36 Old 06-17-2019
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Re: New theft threat

Here’s what I want in a navigational aid.
Integration of all information.

I’m going Hampton Va to Antigua W.I.. Tell the great circle course. But modify it to:
Allow for weather and avoid waves over 2 meters.
Or
Achieve the best VMG & passage time
Or
Best mpg if under power
Or
Any combination
While doing this avoid collision risk and grounding risk.

Or
I’m going day sailing and want to go from X to Y or maybe from X back to X.
Tell me and plot
The sail with the least beating (or the most) or least DDW.
The sail with the least amount of traffic that I can do in x time.
The sail in the lightest air.
The transit with least engine.
The sail making best use of current.
While doing this of course no collisions or grounding

When I ocean raced often served as navigator. Most of that job was guesstimating the answers to questions like those above. Now navigators have elegant programs to help them through this so it is more science and less art. Don’t see why at least the basics of this can’t currently be done on recreational boats.
Download gribs, currents whatever’s necessary and have the interface do pop ups or alerts for weather or high traffic zone, vessels with tows or whatever you what.
Also allow for colorblindness if needed. One of my good friends on a sistership is colorblind. Rather than color demarcating heading and cog use little balls or dashes for those lines. Even for us using the same screens for the last six years takes awhile to figure which is which especially when tired or in rain/fog/full sun/screens turned down at night.

s/v Hippocampus
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Last edited by outbound; 06-17-2019 at 08:00 AM.
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post #29 of 36 Old 06-17-2019
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Re: New theft threat

Out, certainly folks have programmed more complex calculations. I think the rub is the forecast inputs. Wind and waves, let alone stream current, are never quite right. As Iím sure you know, there are programs (predict wind) that will do some of what you want. Great circle is easy.
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post #30 of 36 Old 06-17-2019
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Re: New theft threat

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Donít recall saying anything about resolution at all. Do recall saying having all relevant data on one screen in a easily read format is a good thing.
Donít recall saying anything about a particular lower size limit but do recall below a reasonable size itís nearly impossible to meet the above criteria.
Iím myopic. I unfortunately have occasion to sail in crappy weather. To date Iíve yet to find a touch screen on anything be it pad, tablet or chart plotter that reliably works. Iíve yet to find a pad/tablet I can read and use at the helm in snotty conditions.
Furuno comes close but also not there yet. Still, wired. Still not customizable to allow what peripherals you choose. Still ridiculously expensive.
Suspect within our lifetimes you will put on a pair of glasses or have implants or be projected holographic images. You will ask or think of what you want to see and there it will be.
The underlying engineering, AI, is well on its way. This compulsion to take hard one or the other positions will be irrelevant. Even now think many use both and will embrace the next great thing. In the meantime just hope the manufacturers stop adding useless bells and whistles to their programs.
You had talked about large monitors, enough space for split screens, and ability to read small stuff easily, so I took that as being about size and resolution in my response. I still don't understand how those things aren't dependent on size and resolution.

Furuno doesn't make a tablet, so I don't understand your statement about them coming close to making a tablet you can read and use at the helm. Maybe you meant their radar/app on a tablet?

As for peripherals, the only peripheral specific to Furuno is the radar. This is true for all manufacturers. Otherwise, we have 22 peripherals connected to our Furuno plotter, and none of them are Furuno. Everything works just fine, and all but the autopilot can actually be controlled through the Furuno plotter. The autopilot can be set to a waypoint or route through the Furuno, but all of its functionality is not available there. This is also the case for all manufacturers.

Which brings up a separate point about the current plotters - they are chock-full of functionalities that don't make much sense to me. For example, one of the peripherals connected to the network is our stereo. The Furuno sees this and allows me to control it through the chartplotter. If we had a Furuno AP, it would also be completely controllable through the plotter. Raymarine plotters can control your drone. And it goes on from there - if we had them connected, the plotter can control our lights, and AC/heat, and much everything else on board. We could use our phones from the plotter.

But the plotter is about the worse interface for these things I can imagine. It also is usually mounted in the worse place to do many of these things. I don't understand the need or want for this type of thing. I do understand the AP control because it would allow someone to not have a separate control head, although that is not how I like it. If one wanted networked lights, environment, etc, it would be much better done away from the plotter on a dedicated central device. I have no experience with drones, but the thought of operating one through my plotter sounds like immediately throwing $1000 into the ocean.

Other than that, standardization of marine communication has been a blessing for boaters. We are no longer beholden to a single brand throughout everything we want installed, and a 6yr old can install pretty much everything - it is all plug and play, with power for most stuff drawn off the network using a single cord with simple plug ends.

Personally, I'm looking forward to what augmented reality and AI will bring to the industry. I would like glasses with projections on them - look at a ship and see its information, CPA, TCA, etc. Even see its future relative crossing position with your boat. Look at shore and see a chart overlay or radar overlay showing you if things are what they seem. "See" channel markers and other things in the dark. The possibilities are endless and game-changing. People are always complaining about sailors having their heads buried in their plotters and not using their Mark1 eyeballs, but Mark2 eyeballs like above solves everything.

Mark

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