Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership - Page 14 - SailNet Community
 63Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #131 of 138 Old 10-22-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,823
Thanks: 2
Thanked 95 Times in 95 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest View Post
I've been trying to entice young/younger people to get in to sailing for years now. With similar thought in mind, of being able to turn the boat over to someone else to sail eventually. It's a real challenge. There are summer weekends here, when I'm one of few sailboats on the water. During the week, I can almost be assured that I'll be the only sailboat on the Bay, in the height of summer! This in an area with over 20 million people within 50 miles of me.

Yet, Go to a Winery, a micro-brewery, a distillery,, a Food Truck festival, an outdoor Music Festival. a restaurant, around here and the crowds and the traffic are such that it's almost unbearable. The constant refrain when I take people sailing is " Wow, that's a lot of work" That, when I'm the only one doing the "work" , and often with guests aboard will only deploy the Genoa.

Might help if I create a food-boat, micro brewery... wait! I serve food and beer too?

Different Generation! Look around your boatyards in the fall and spring. How many people are there working on sailboats that don't have gray hair? ;-) ( if they have hair) ;-)
this is so right!

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #132 of 138 Old 10-22-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 20,331
Thanks: 82
Thanked 577 Times in 553 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
The statement about the keys was to make the point that you would probably want to spend considerable time with another sailor who you handed the keys to your boat.
I may want to, but that's the point. You want to, but you probably won't be allowed to with a new partner any more than they desire you to. It's no longer your boat, in a partnership, it's their boat too.

I think your sentiments are normal, just not practical for an equity partnership. You have to be willing to let the new partner make their own mistakes, learn alone, scratch your baby.

Quote:
I realize many people hire crew to deliver a boat. I've delivered a few boats as crew with the owner. And one sister ship of Shiva to an owner who hadn't sailed the boat. The delivery was 4,000 miles!

I think I would ship Shiva rather than hire a crew to do a long delivery. But more likely I would get crew to help and do it myself.
Interesting point. Turning the keys over to a professional, experienced delivery captain, should be a whole heck of lot easier than taking on a stranger as a partner. A partner isn't being paid to do what you tell them to do, how you tell them to do it. I've hired a deliver crew, with my boat, several times. A fairly basic list of thru-hulls, electronics and any squawks or idiosyncracies, such as max cruise RPM, and they're good to go. They spend the better part of a day going through the boat themselves and away they go. Whether via satellite or cell, they can and have called, with non-emergency questions, but not very often. Usually only to check in.

Enjoy your boat next summer and see how it goes, I think you may just not be ready to let go. Nothing wrong with that.

Quote:
I am trying to be positive so the negativity is a bit of a bummer.
Everyone in your SN camaraderie, including myself, hopes you find what you are looking for. I almost decided to just stop responding, if you find it negative. However, your friends, family and therapist will tell you the truth, if they care, not just patronize you. And still wish you well in finding what you're looking for.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
post #133 of 138 Old 10-22-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,823
Thanks: 2
Thanked 95 Times in 95 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I may want to, but that's the point. You want to, but you probably won't be allowed to with a new partner any more than they desire you to. It's no longer your boat, in a partnership, it's their boat too.

I think your sentiments are normal, just not practical for an equity partnership. You have to be willing to let the new partner make their own mistakes, learn alone, scratch your baby.
.....

Everyone in your SN camaraderie, including myself, hopes you find what you are looking for. I almost decided to just stop responding, if you find it negative. However, your friends, family and therapist will tell you the truth, if they care, not just patronize you. And still wish you well in finding what you're looking for.
So this clarifies something confusing... what IS the partnership?

For sure if the value was agreed upon and someone payed me 1/2 that value they would be an equal partner re equity. I don't expect that can happen for a number of reasons. Not many have the cash available and usually finance a boat. I doubt a lender will finance this deal. But I will... which means I will give them a term to pay their half... but they will not be fully vested until they have paid the full half.

So what does that mean? Do they share the operating expenses and work and get 50% use upon signing? I don't think that makes sense either. I am not sure if/how their ownership % can be increasing as they make payments. But it should be. What does owning 10% of the boat entitle them to? what responsibilities would they have? I have not thought this through. I am open to ideas and especially from someone who wants to do the deal and pay over time.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
 
post #134 of 138 Old 10-22-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 20,331
Thanks: 82
Thanked 577 Times in 553 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

There is a big difference between owner financing and an installment sale. Tax implications too, but ignore those as I doubt there are gains, although, the buyer may want a tax deduction on the "loan".

If you've financed half the boat, they own half the boat, regardless of whether they've paid you yet. Just like you actually own your house, not the bank just because you borrowed the money from them.

If you arrange for an installment sale, whether they theoretically have the right/obligation to buy 10% per year at a fixed price, their ownership increases over time. Year one, they own 10%. Therefore, you would likely agree to them paying 10% of the costs. The problem is no one should agree to be a minority owner like that. They indeed have no say in the partnership. Even if they like and fully trust you day one, you may become incapacitated or change your temperament, etc. Any advisor (accountant, attorney) would very strongly talk them out of it.

You'll need to let go to make this work.
mstern and chef2sail like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
post #135 of 138 Old 10-22-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,164
Thanks: 114
Thanked 47 Times in 46 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

Is your boat suited to single handing passages, assuming a well trained but fitter captain?
john61ct is online now  
post #136 of 138 Old 10-22-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,823
Thanks: 2
Thanked 95 Times in 95 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Is your boat suited to single handing passages, assuming a well trained but fitter captain?
absolutely with offshore prep... I've done thousands of miles single handed and with one other person

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
post #137 of 138 Old 10-23-2019
Senior Member
 
mstern's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,502
Thanks: 61
Thanked 52 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 18
 
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
So this clarifies something confusing... what IS the partnership?

What does owning 10% of the boat entitle them to? what responsibilities would they have? I have not thought this through. I am open to ideas and especially from someone who wants to do the deal and pay over time.
This is really the question, or more practically, is there anyone out there willing to do a deal like this?

Like everyone else here, I hope you find someone that fits the bill. Most of the negative comments seem to originate in the fact that the commentators would never want something like this. I include myself in that group, btw. It doesn’t mean an acceptable candidate doesn’t exist, just that he’s probably not on Sailnet!

But your question about how to gradually transfer ownership might be solved by bifurcating the issues: you have the “what should Captain Beta be allowed to do with the boat?” question, and “how much equity does Beta own”?

Can you define a series of tasks that you would like to have Beta successfully execute before he moves on to the next level? He shows he can undock, dock, moor and unmoor unsupervised; he then gets to go on day sails or overnights without you. He can reef in 25 knots of wind; he can go 100 miles from the home port, etc.

All of this is separate from how much he owns. You set a price and payment schedule, with the ability to speed up the process. Of course, if you decide you need or want to sell before his last payment is due, he has right of first refusal. And if you do sell before he can or wants to become the owner, he is paid back his equity from the sale proceeds.

The amount of equity could be used as a marker for how much he gets to use the boat. First season, he gets x number of days that he can use for the activities he’s qualified for. including unlimited sails with Captain Alpha (that’s you). Next season, his equity is greater, so his number of solo days increases. Presumably, his competence also grows, so he can do more with the boat without you aboard. You would probably also want to address how to handle any potential upgrades during the transition period, as well as responsibility for repairs. Level of maintenance would also be important. Who gets to decide if you need new running rigging or a bottom job? Or even if the last person left the icebox clean enough?

I know that a big part of this for you is having someone to sail with to ease your burden, but frankly, I don’t see how you could make that mandatory. You can make it so that you and Beta sail together so he can prove his competence, but other than that, it would have to be voluntary on his part. Unlike some here, I could see how that would be attractive. Not a lot of my friends know how to sail, so having a partner to do some cruising with sounds good to me. However, it wouldn’t be a very steady gig; maybe once a season? And while I also get the whole mentoring thing, I don’t think that’s a long term option either. Is there really that much to teach about Shiva? I would think that after a season of mentoring and Shiva- U, Beta is going to know everything he is able to learn about the boat. Of course, you still have much to impart in the ways of seamanship, but again, you can’t force your company on the Beta’s.

In short, unless you find a true partner, I think the best you are looking at is one more season with Shiva. After that, you will be an owner waiting for an invitation to sail from the other owner.
SanderO and chef2sail like this.
mstern is online now  
post #138 of 138 Old 10-23-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northport, NY
Posts: 3,823
Thanks: 2
Thanked 95 Times in 95 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Exiting Strategies for Boat Ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstern View Post
This is really the question, or more practically, is there anyone out there willing to do a deal like this?

Like everyone else here, I hope you find someone that fits the bill. Most of the negative comments seem to originate in the fact that the commentators would never want something like this. I include myself in that group, btw. It doesn’t mean an acceptable candidate doesn’t exist, just that he’s probably not on Sailnet!

But your question about how to gradually transfer ownership might be solved by bifurcating the issues: you have the “what should Captain Beta be allowed to do with the boat?” question, and “how much equity does Beta own”?

Can you define a series of tasks that you would like to have Beta successfully execute before he moves on to the next level? He shows he can undock, dock, moor and unmoor unsupervised; he then gets to go on day sails or overnights without you. He can reef in 25 knots of wind; he can go 100 miles from the home port, etc.

All of this is separate from how much he owns. You set a price and payment schedule, with the ability to speed up the process. Of course, if you decide you need or want to sell before his last payment is due, he has right of first refusal. And if you do sell before he can or wants to become the owner, he is paid back his equity from the sale proceeds.

The amount of equity could be used as a marker for how much he gets to use the boat. First season, he gets x number of days that he can use for the activities he’s qualified for. including unlimited sails with Captain Alpha (that’s you). Next season, his equity is greater, so his number of solo days increases. Presumably, his competence also grows, so he can do more with the boat without you aboard. You would probably also want to address how to handle any potential upgrades during the transition period, as well as responsibility for repairs. Level of maintenance would also be important. Who gets to decide if you need new running rigging or a bottom job? Or even if the last person left the icebox clean enough?

I know that a big part of this for you is having someone to sail with to ease your burden, but frankly, I don’t see how you could make that mandatory. You can make it so that you and Beta sail together so he can prove his competence, but other than that, it would have to be voluntary on his part. Unlike some here, I could see how that would be attractive. Not a lot of my friends know how to sail, so having a partner to do some cruising with sounds good to me. However, it wouldn’t be a very steady gig; maybe once a season? And while I also get the whole mentoring thing, I don’t think that’s a long term option either. Is there really that much to teach about Shiva? I would think that after a season of mentoring and Shiva- U, Beta is going to know everything he is able to learn about the boat. Of course, you still have much to impart in the ways of seamanship, but again, you can’t force your company on the Beta’s.

In short, unless you find a true partner, I think the best you are looking at is one more season with Shiva. After that, you will be an owner waiting for an invitation to sail from the other owner.
This is excellent!

There may be Betas out there who don't get to sail larger boats... for any number of reasons... except maybe a charter... and if they can quality to charter... they should be able to sail Shiva without too much schoolin'. But chartering is pretty spendy and demands large chunks of time etc. and a local boat to sail on... like a day rental would be handy for these Betas. Might even be available for multiple days. I don't think I can legally charter and renting may raise insurance concerns. But an informal sharing/use might work. Don't want to have to make a claim!

And then there's the work assist. I don't think it's unreasonable to be offered assistance... usually in exchange for sailing time...usally as crew for noobs. This is something we read about on SN often told to noobs: go to the boat yard... chart up some sailor... offer to help with Spring work and you'll likely be offered sailing time. This seems to be reasonable quid pro quos... (should I ask trump?) ;-)

I can carry on as before... as I haven't reached a decision point. SO this thread is really about when I am not able to sail as much and the costs remain will in retirement with less income. That's when thew wifey says... Alpha we're wastin' too much money on the boat... sell it. So maybe I need to go thru the year of little use and too much expense and "work for nothing"... and put the boat up for sail. However, I would reconsider my "upgrade schedule"... maybe postpone getting the AIS B and certainly the N2K... doing varnish, new saiis, running rigging and so on.

But the issue of sale price is also a matter for younger Betas... they may have lots of expenses... mortgage(s) on homes, private schools, car expenses, club memberships and whose knows what else. A boat is a big ticket item not unlike a new car or a small vacation cottage. And maybe that's why sail away dreams are often deferred to when people have passed those other hurdles.

You need time and money to commit to a sailor cruiser passage maker boat. It can't come cheap and young people don't have time if they are building a career by actually working. And building families may not be incompatible with owning such a boat... but it can be. Family might not like using the boat...and Beta needs to support the youngins' regardless. Absentee pop playing with his toys will not make mama happy.

I've met one Beta who appears to be the sail for help type of guy. And if I get on with him... while sole owner... why not?

Now I have to see if any other Beta's surface and what could work for them.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome