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post #11 of 21 Old 11-07-2019
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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
Yipes.

Here is what Part 7 of the Small Vessel Regulations have to say

[I]
702*A pleasure craft shall meet

(a)*the construction requirements of this Part; or

(b)*if its date of construction, manufacture or rebuilding or its date of importation is before the day on which these Regulations come into force, the construction requirements in force on that date.[
/I]
Reasonable and sensible. I just hope the surveys and insurance companies know this as well.

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post #12 of 21 Old 11-07-2019
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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
With a few exceptions Transport Canada has offically recognised ABYC Standards giving them the force of law.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...l-vessels.html
So does this mean that the Government of Canada will be putting the ABYC Standards online?

The reality is that even without this law, surveyors have generally called out items which do not comply with the current ABYC Standards when it was seen as endangering life and safety.

When I bought my boat (as is-where is) she had one frozen seacock, a propane tank locker that vented into the engine room, no solenoid or remote cutoff for the propane tanks, a brittle with age, clear plastic water tubing as the vent hose for the diesel fuel tank, and a 110 volt system that included a Square D steel fuse box with screw in glass fuses in the lazarette and no cut off in the cabin and romex wiring. The surveyor rightly called this out on the survey and the insurance company put my boat on 'Port Restriction' until these were corrected and a surveyor signed off on them. I would fully expect a survey to have caught and record all of that on the survey. I also was glad to correct all of that since every bit of those upgrades made complete sense to me.

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post #13 of 21 Old 11-07-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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So does this mean that the Government of Canada will be putting the ABYC Standards online?

The reality is that even without this law, surveyors have generally called out items which do not comply with the current ABYC Standards when it was seen as endangering life and safety.

When I bought my boat (as is-where is) she had one frozen seacock, a propane tank locker that vented into the engine room, no solenoid or remote cutoff for the propane tanks, a brittle with age, clear plastic water tubing as the vent hose for the diesel fuel tank, and a 110 volt system that included a Square D steel fuse box with screw in glass fuses in the lazarette and no cut off in the cabin and romex wiring. The surveyor rightly called this out on the survey and the insurance company put my boat on 'Port Restriction' until these were corrected and a surveyor signed off on them. I would fully expect a survey to have caught and record all of that on the survey. I also was glad to correct all of that since every bit of those upgrades made complete sense to me.

Jeff
Curiously neither CFR's nor TP1332 even mention propane on pleasure craft.

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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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Reasonable and sensible. I just hope the surveys and insurance companies know this as well.
It matters not to the underwriters. They can demand whatever they want, law or not. They frequently make demands regarding propane but LPG systems are not regulated or even mentioned in US or Canadian law for pleasure craft.

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post #15 of 21 Old 11-07-2019
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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Curiously neither CFR's nor TP1332 even mention propane on pleasure craft.
I have not looked at the ABYC Standards for a very long time. The Standards used to contain a lot of references to other Standards. I may not remember this correctly but if I remember accurately the ABYC standard for propane systems essentially said that propane systems need to conform to the NFPA Standard for propane systems.

Jeff


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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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I have not looked at the ABYC Standards for a very long time. The Standards used to contain a lot of references to other Standards. I may not remember this correctly but if I remember accurately the ABYC standard for propane systems essentially said that propane systems need to conform to the NFPA Standard for propane systems.

Jeff
A little more to it than that. PM me with an email address and I'll send the standard if interested

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post #17 of 21 Old 11-07-2019
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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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It matters not to the underwriters. They can demand whatever they want, law or not. They frequently make demands regarding propane but LPG systems are not regulated or even mentioned in US or Canadian law for pleasure craft.
You would know far better than me. My sense is that underwriters rely on whatever standard suits their fancy. Iíve had surveyors and underwriters that focus on propane. Iíve had others, faced with the exact same setup on my boat, not even bat an eye. The application of these standards seem almost random to me as a simple consumer of insurance.

My bet is that if some authority states this is the standard, many underwriters will unthinkingly use it as well.

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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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You would know far better than me. My sense is that underwriters rely on whatever standard suits their fancy. Iíve had surveyors and underwriters that focus on propane. Iíve had others, faced with the exact same setup on my boat, not even bat an eye. The application of these standards seem almost random to me as a simple consumer of insurance.

My bet is that if some authority states this is the standard, many underwriters will unthinkingly use it as well.
It has been m experience that few insurance brokers actually read the surveys and of those that do most don't understand what they are reading. There are notable excepetions, BoatUS has people that read each survey and will call the surveyor for clarification if need be. Drew Robertson of Skippers Plan also understands what he is reading, few others do. Witness the surveys they accept .... HULL - Good, ENGINES - Two

I once wrote a survey for a charter boat out of Port Credit and wrote in the report " This vessel will explode" ..... within days this fella had a policy and was taking families out fishing ! Several times I have noted in survey reports that anti-fouling needed refreshing and have the insurer demand it be done right away. It is a bizarre crap shoot.

This industry is a shoddy amateur hour from one end to the other.
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post #19 of 21 Old 11-07-2019
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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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It has been m experience that few insurance brokers actually read the surveys and of those that do most don't understand what they are reading. There are notable excepetions, BoatUS has people that read each survey and will call the surveyor for clarification if need be. Drew Robertson of Skippers Plan also understands what he is reading, few others do. Witness the surveys they accept .... HULL - Good, ENGINES - Two

I once wrote a survey for a charter boat out of Port Credit and wrote in the report " This vessel will explode" ..... within days this fella had a policy and was taking families out fishing ! Several times I have noted in survey reports that anti-fouling needed refreshing and have the insurer demand it be done right away. It is a bizarre crap shoot.

This industry is a shoddy amateur hour from one end to the other.
Thanks for confirming all my worst fears

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post #20 of 21 Old 11-08-2019
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Re: ABYC now Law in Canada (pretty much)

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
It has been m experience that few insurance brokers actually read the surveys and of those that do most don't understand what they are reading. There are notable excepetions, BoatUS has people that read each survey and will call the surveyor for clarification if need be. Drew Robertson of Skippers Plan also understands what he is reading, few others do. Witness the surveys they accept .... HULL - Good, ENGINES - Two

This industry is a shoddy amateur hour from one end to the other.
It is very interesting that you say that. While I have priced a different insurance companies at various times, I have has BoatUS insurance almost continuously since some time in the mid-1970's. I have always been impressed with the knowledge of the adjusters and underwriters and assumed this was typical of all marine insurance companies. If I remember the details correctly, when I bought Synergy, BoatUS agred to bind the boat for 10 days (since I had coverage on my prior boat) but I had to send BoatUS the survey on Synergy within that 10 days of buying the boat. I emailed the survey to BoatUS as soon as I decided to proceed with the purchase. If I remember right the next day I received a call from the underwriter who went through the survey to make sure I knew what BopatUS considered to be port restricted safety items, and items that the Insurer considered as strong recommendations. It was a surprisingly detailed call from someone who clearly understood boats. (The underwriter owned a J-30.)

I am sorry to hear that this is not typical of marine underwriters. I was an experienced sailor at the time, and yet some of the suggestions were good ones that I might not have picked up on. For example, the surveyor noted that some of the PFD's looked worn out and the BoatUS underwriter recommended removing those from the boat so someone does not grab them in an emergency. I am not sure that I would have paid attention to that if it had not been suggested, I might have, but it was a good highlight. After the survey review with the Underwriter, my thinking at the time is that a lot of folks are buying first boats and this kind of review would be extremely helpful to them.

I have never been clear on whether BoatUS made that type of call to everyone or just to people like me, who filed the survey before closing the deal on the boat and who had very serious safety hazards found during the survey. In my case, I knew about the big issues and had planned to address them anyway, but it certainly motivated me to correct these items quickly so I could use my new boat.

I sent you a PM from the message above.

Jeff


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Last edited by Jeff_H; 11-08-2019 at 10:12 AM.
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