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post #21 of 36 Old 11-07-2019 Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by matthewwhill View Post
Patrickbryant- this is fantastic! My questions:

Is the anchoring load on the chock, the line looped to the snatch block, the snatch block itself, or the anchor rode and the cleat at the stern? Or a combination of those?

If a part of the load is born by the snatch block is it strong enough?

If a part of the load is on the stern cleat will this pull that part of the stern forward toward the anchor?
The entire load is on the anchor rode and cleat. The only load on the snatch block and loop is the load needed to haul the rode to the bow from the cockpit (the stern quarter) while initially anchoring when the anchor has not yet been set, and to haul the rode back to the cockpit after the anchor has been unset. While anchored, all of the load passes through the anchor rode that runs parallel to the loop and snatch block. Of course, the jibsheet cleat has to be sufficiently robust to carry the anchor loads, and I've chosen a robust snatch block rated at 5,000 pounds- just in case. (https://www.garhauermarine.com/snatch-block-70sn.html)

Since there is no angular difference between the anchor rode passing through the bow skein chock and the loop (the lines are parallel) while the anchor is set, there is no yawing tendency caused by the loop. I'll take some photos of the setup this weekend and post them here.
I would love to see pictures! How do you attach the loop to the snatch block? Two bowlines?
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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
So if I may, I will summarize your response to the original question: "Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?" I interpret your response above to say: "It makes no sense to do that."

OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

Your definition of "hove to" seems to differ from mine. It wasn't practical to include an instrument reading in the video, but I assure you, the wind was directly abeam (90 degrees offset from the boat's heading). You may have studied sailing somewhere different than I, or you may not be accustomed to appearance of a boat with a full keel when hove to.
You are correct about my answer to the original question: "Does anyone have experience heaving to, going to the bow and dropping the anchor from there, crouched down behind the backed jib?" is that I have a lot of experience doing all four of these things, (heaving to, going to the bow, dropping the anchor, and couching behind a back-winded jib), and based on that experience, in my opinion it makes absolutely no sense to heave to in order to drop the anchor, especially when short handed for the reasons stated earlier.

My definition of "heaving-to" is the traditional one: i.e. Heaving to is when a vessel is at or nearly at rest approximately perpendicular to the wind, with the state of being hove-to achieved through the balancing of the set of the sails, and the helm. If you have a different definition, it might be helpful to explain how your definition differs.

Given that the telltales on boat in the video showed that the wind was well forward and that the bow wave showed near continuous forward motion, that boat would have more closely met the definition of fore-reaching, rather than the definition of being hove-to. There is nothing wrong with fore-reaching to drop a sail, in fact it works well since it keeps the sails more closely centered over the boat as it comes down.

When hove-to most boats 'cradle' which is to mean moving slightly forward and slightly aft and coming slightly towards the wind and slightly away from the wind as it does, but when hove-to and in keeping with the goal of being hove to, the wake will leave the boat nearly perpendicular to the boat.

While on the subject of definitions, similarly the boat in the video, (a Pearson Ariel or Commander) would more closely meet the definition of a long fin keel (using the definition of a fin keel that was in use at the time that the Ariel or Commander were designed, i.e. a keel that is has a bottom that less than half of the length of its sail plan) with attached rudder or by today's terms, a cut-way keel with raked rudder post rather than it being a full keel.

To illustrate, here is the keel on the Ariel:
Pearson Ariel out of the water by jeff_halp,

Here is a full-keeled boat that I used to own:
Indian out of water Big by jeff_halp

And yes I have hove-to in both full keel and cutaway keel boats and so I am very accustomed the appearance and feel of being hove to on both types of keels. With that in mind, I still respectfully suggest that that video is misnamed since the boat in question was not hove-to, and that anchoring either hove-to or fore-reaching makes no sense.

Jeff
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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

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Originally Posted by matthewwhill View Post
I would love to see pictures! How do you attach the loop to the snatch block? Two bowlines?
I have a cast thimble tied with a constrictor knot, because I'm superstitious about the reliability of splices in woven line.
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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

Jeff, I believe our definitions of "hove to" are in fundamental agreement. We are both using the "traditional" definition. Nice boat, by the way. Our keels are very similar, except for the cutaway forefoot on the Ariel. Frankly, I prefer your keel.

Watching the foam on the lee side of the boat as a guide to its speed through the water, it takes about 10 seconds to traverse the 25 feet of the boat (the aft-most part of the stern isn't visible). Rounding a bit: that's 2.5 feet per second = 150 feet per minute = 1.5 knots. That is the slowest possible speed at which I can maintain steerage, and where my boat naturally settles with the helm hard over when hove to. I refer to my electronic wind indicator at the masthead, and it shows wind 90 degrees relative (directly abeam). Another indicator of relative wind is the burgee on the starboard flag hoist, but it fouls often and shows transient effects of the swells. My actual telltales are on the upper shrouds, but are too small to see clearly in the video.

Since the boat is, and must, be moving forward in the water to maintain the minimal steerage needed to be stable while hove to, the relative wind will shift slightly ahead with a 1.5 knot forward component. But we will have to agree to disagree on our visual interpretation. It could be that, blessed with a real full keel, your boat appears differently and behaves better than mine when hove to.
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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
Jeff, I believe our definitions of "hove to" are in fundamental agreement. We are both using the "traditional" definition. Nice boat, by the way. Our keels are very similar, except for the cutaway forefoot on the Ariel. Frankly, I prefer your keel.

Watching the foam on the lee side of the boat as a guide to its speed through the water, it takes about 10 seconds to traverse the 25 feet of the boat (the aft-most part of the stern isn't visible). Rounding a bit: that's 2.5 feet per second = 150 feet per minute = 1.5 knots. That is the slowest possible speed at which I can maintain steerage, and where my boat naturally settles with the helm hard over when hove to. I refer to my electronic wind indicator at the masthead, and it showed wind 90 degrees relative, to starboard. Another indicator of relative wind is the burgee on the starboard flag hoist, but it fouls often and shows transient effects of the swells. My actual telltales are on the upper shrouds, but are too small to see clearly in the video.

Since the boat is, and must, be moving forward in the water to maintain minimal steerage, the relative wind will shift slightly ahead with a 1.5 knot forward component. But we will have to agree to disagree on our visual interpretation. It could be that, blessed with a real full keel, your boat appears differently and behaves better than mine when hove to.
Patrick: Is that your Ariel? Sorry, I did not realize that was your video.

In any event, reading your description, I do understand that you need to keep moving at around 1 1/2 knots to keep water flowing over the keel and rudder enough to maintain a slow steady course. Your description is conistent what I had observed in the video. If you don't mind a suggestion, I would think that if you back-winded the jib a slightly more and flattened the main a little and then lowered the boom more to leeward, the bow of the boat would pay off slightly so that the boat was literally sliding sidewards on a course that is roughly 90 degrees to the compass course of the boat. That should be at a much slower speed than 1 1/2 knots. We had a Vanguard at one point:
Windrift 1963-64_001 by jeff_halp, on Flickr

She had a similar keel to the Ariel and Commanders. She could be made to hove to, but we more typically set her up to forereach which she would do for long periods of time.

This is my current keel on Synergy,
PIC00003 by jeff_halp,

Synergy heaves-to and behaves pretty much like the full keel that was on Indian. If I set Synergy up to be hove-to she sides sideward at approximately 1/2 to 3/4 of a knot, sliding close to dead down wind with almost no forward motion or else an alternating slightly forward then aft motion. He wake is just slightly aft of the weather beam with no wake to leeward. If I set her up to forereach, she plods along at closer to 2 knots if there is much wind with small bow and stern wakes on both sides of the boat. The difference between the two is how the sails are set. Whether I choose to do one or the other depends on how much searoom I have around me, where I am heading, and how long I expect to be off the helm.

Jeff


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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

Ah, it all becomes clearer now... I can see why you say it is pointless to drop an anchor while hove to. With so little speed to tension the rode, how would the anchor set?

My definition of "hove to" involves 1.5 knots of combined forward/lee motion. Yours does not. Understood.

And with bottoms that aren't mud (most here are), I will drop the anchor from the stern, let out scope quickly, and snub off the rode at the stern. The boat then takes up the slack, and the bow swings downwind, filling the let out main to further tension the rode. I then transfer the rode to the bow with the loop I described above, and take in sail with the bow head-to.

This works well, with the caveat that the method shouldn't be used if there is substantial swell which could poop the stern. If there's no swell at all, I sometimes remain anchored stern-to because my boat rides better at anchor with the stern into the wind. She tends to "sail" at anchor when head-to.

You are also quite correct with your recommendation for reducing speed while hove to. But we have pretty heavy swell here most of the time, and my boat wallows and wanders if I don't have enough way on to maintain steerage.
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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

Find there’s nothing magical about the bow. When by myself have picked up moorings by backing down to them under power. Much easier as I can see the mooring and it’s nearer to me when trying to pick it up.
If it’s raining but mild and not bumpy leave it that way so I can open overhead hatches a bit. If it’s bumpy put a long line from one bow cleat through the pendant then the other bow cleat ( or sometime midship cleat and transfer to bow as a second step). Ease the line I have off the stern cleat. Take in line from one side of the bow and that way transfer to the traditional bow first conformation. If it’s windy can use a mast mounted winch to take in slack. That’s a bit of running around but works using yet another line and a truckers hitch if needs be.
Main reason on current boat to try to be bow first is ease of getting in/out of the dinghy and not deal with anchor chain when approaching the boat in the dinghy.
All boats have their problems but small boats are easier in some respects as you don’t need winches to do most things. Worse for anchoring by myself was a small cape dory cutter. No room on the foredeck. Lots to bang into moving around. Engine that worked half the time. No roller furling. Full keel. Still if you approach on a reach then head up so everything is luffing the boat stops. It may drift back a bit but that’s fine. Flogging headsail is a pain while anchoring but you’re lowdown anyway. Still think that technique is easier than heaving to. Let everyone know how things work out for you.

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post #28 of 36 Old 11-07-2019 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewwhill View Post
Patrickbryant- this is fantastic! My questions:

Is the anchoring load on the chock, the line looped to the snatch block, the snatch block itself, or the anchor rode and the cleat at the stern? Or a combination of those?

If a part of the load is born by the snatch block is it strong enough?

If a part of the load is on the stern cleat will this pull that part of the stern forward toward the anchor?
The entire load is on the anchor rode and jibsheet cleat. The only load on the snatch block and loop is the load needed to haul the rode to the bow from the cockpit (the stern quarter) while initially anchoring when the anchor has not yet been set, and to haul the rode back to the cockpit after the anchor has been unset. While anchored, all of the load passes through the anchor rode that runs parallel to the loop and snatch block. Of course, the jibsheet cleat has to be sufficiently robust to carry the anchor loads, and I've chosen a robust snatch block rated at 5,000 pounds- just in case. (https://www.garhauermarine.com/snatch-block-70sn.html)

One other advantage of this method is the ability to use a jibsheet winch to take in the anchor rode. Naturally, all of the components involved: bow skein chock, snatch block, winch and cleat must be robust enough to do the job.

Since there is no angular difference between the anchor rode passing through the bow skein chock and the loop (the lines are parallel) while the anchor is set, there is no yawing tendency caused by the loop. I'll take some photos of the setup this weekend and post them here.
The more I think about this the more I suspect there has to be some portion of the load on the snatch block, loop, and chock - especially when waves cause the bow to oscillate up and down. That’s not necessarily bad , but like you said if I were to set up this kind of system I would use lines and hardware that were rated to sustain those loads.

The bow/forward end of the loop is thru the chock. How is the aft/stern end secured so the loop is taught and secure when the anchor rode is up at the bow?

Last edited by matthewwhill; 11-07-2019 at 11:53 PM.
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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

The loop line is tied off to a cleat beside the cockpit. I manually tension the loop when I tie it off.

At the bow, I have a robust turning block for the loop line. The block is attached by stainless chain (to avoid chafe) to a deck plate that is through-bolted through the deck, with a thick stainless backing plate.

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Re: Anchoring single handed whilst hove to?

I single hand most of the time. Anchoring is nearly always one person, and I am never in a rush. It's about planning.

Plan out your sailing strategy. You will be using one sail, perhaps reefed, and should be able to drop it fast. Remember, it does not need to be down, only depowered. Ropes should be neatened up, sheets out of selftailers and the like.

The anchor should be ready to run. You released all of the lashings etc. 10 minutes before, while on aproach right? Thus, you only need the time it takes to walk to the bow, which if you know your boat should be 10 seconds or less at a modest pace. Lower the anchor, let the boat drift back, and slowly start snubbing. If you are not comfortable walking to the bow in anchorage conditions, that's a separate problem forth solving. No, the bow of my tri is not very wide.

Anchor setting procedure may or may not require sail. Separate subject. I generally just pulled up a lot of slack and let her drift back hard (keep it straight for more umph).

(My comments apply to a range of boat sizes, up to perhaps 45 feet, not just he one in my current avitar. It by no means the only boat or the largest boat I have single handed.)

Single handing is less about special procedures and more about breaking tasks down into single step so that you never have to do two things a the same time. Practice each operation in open space until it is reliable and calm.

Heaving to depends on which way the boats drifts. Many make considerable headway, making the method unsuitable. Also heaving to with a genoa up can be really bad for it (stretch over spreaders). But it might work for some.
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