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post #11 of 27 Old 3 Weeks Ago
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Re: Stern light relocation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
No one can tell if it's mast hight or not... Because lights are on at night and the mast is dark.
Plus, if you can see the port/starboard light you cant see the stern light....

If I was Mr Col Reg I would tell all you minions that sailing boats need a better lighting system because red/green can't be seen when they're at deck level. And males have a high % of night colour blindness... (that's why I went with my last girlfriend)


Yes, love is blind... I should have had my eyes checked before I got married (twice).

> if you can see the port/starboard light you cant see the stern light

Only if neither vessel changes relative aspect, which would only happen with a perfectly converging course (up until the vessels collide). Still, if i saw a white light 25 feet above the water, I'd interpret that as either a motor vessel's masthead light. The expectation is to see the stern light at or near the gunnel.

I'm configured for Rule 25(c), which gets lights at my masthead saying "this is a sailboat" while keeping navigation lights on at the deck level for directional reference. That configuration uses more power, but with LEDs, all the lights use less power than a single incandescent lamp.
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Re: Stern light relocation.

No! You are defiantly confusing this with red above red and white. What *every* proper sailor knows is:

Vessels Restricted in Their Ability to Maneuver
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light.
aft forward starboard
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light. Lights viewed from behind Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light. Lights viewed from dead ahead Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light. Lights viewed from the starboard side
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light.
see Rule #27
Since being restricted in their ability to maneuver is always "due to the nature of her work" many vessels will also display other lights. However, if the lights are not shown (with the exception of mineclearence) the vessel is not afforded any special consideration.
The specific location of the Red, White, Red lights is flexible within the provision of the rule
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver Towing < 50m in length with tow < 200m

Illustrated Navigation Lights


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Re: Stern light relocation.

Note well the Mine clearing vessels!

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Re: Stern light relocation.

Remind me again which is the white stern light?

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Re: Stern light relocation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
No! You are defiantly confusing this with red above red and white. What *every* proper sailor knows is:

Vessels Restricted in Their Ability to Maneuver
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light.
aft forward starboard
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light. Lights viewed from behind Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light. Lights viewed from dead ahead Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light. Lights viewed from the starboard side
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver > 50m in length or < 50, in length showing the optional second masthead light.
see Rule #27
Since being restricted in their ability to maneuver is always "due to the nature of her work" many vessels will also display other lights. However, if the lights are not shown (with the exception of mineclearence) the vessel is not afforded any special consideration.
The specific location of the Red, White, Red lights is flexible within the provision of the rule
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver Towing < 50m in length with tow < 200m

Illustrated Navigation Lights

> No! You are defiantly confusing this with red above red and white.

Ummm. "Restricted in Their Ability to Maneuver" is red-over-white-over-red. Not red above red and white. The mnemonic we were taught in school was: "Restricted With Reason." See ColRegs Rule 27.

I'm not sure what you believe I am mistaking. Are you referring to my red-over-green configuration? Or do you believe a single white light high above the water doesn't usually denote the (forward facing) masthead light on a motor vessel? The masthead light is supposed to be visible for a greater distance than the side lights, so one can't expect to see a sidelight at a distance.

The illustration I attached was straight out of the Navigation Rules. See Rule 25(c). Do you have a copy on board? Here's a copy: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf. If your boat is larger than 12 meters, you are supposed to have copy on board at all times.

The link you included: "Illustrated Navigation Lights," is bogus. It omits the light configuration allowed by Rule 25(c).

Every Mariner who's attended training knows: "Red-over-green -- sailing machine." I'm hesitant to say every sailor knows that (sadly)... As a sailor, if i didn't know that, I should hand in my master mariner credential.

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Re: Stern light relocation.

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post

I'm not sure what you believe I am mistaking.

Dont worry, nor am I!

I'm just showing you that rules need to be simple enough for meet mortals be able to understand them.

When these rules were made up to have 3 colours was high, high tech. They did very we to have a whole system based on 3 cours. And, remember, no leisure sailors then.

Now we have more visible colours available, electronics, and different users.
I believe (seriously) we need to overhaul the whole system from the get-go. I certainly think a base point to start is the rediculous 2nm visibility rule. For a modern ships they have already diverted at 10nms. 2nms is death.
But now with LEDs etc we can beam out much longer distances in more colours... Just for the idiots who don't have AIS et al




So, yes, I was having a joke with you

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Re: Stern light relocation.

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Dont worry, nor am I!

I'm just showing you that rules need to be simple enough for meet mortals be able to understand them.

When these rules were made up to have 3 colours was high, high tech. They did very we to have a whole system based on 3 cours. And, remember, no leisure sailors then.

Now we have more visible colours available, electronics, and different users.
I believe (seriously) we need to overhaul the whole system from the get-go. I certainly think a base point to start is the rediculous 2nm visibility rule. For a modern ships they have already diverted at 10nms. 2nms is death.
But now with LEDs etc we can beam out much longer distances in more colours... Just for the idiots who don't have AIS et al




So, yes, I was having a joke with you
Preaching to the choir, brother. We need some updating on light standards! There aren't many of us using kerosene lamps these days.

My biggest complaint is with tri-color lights. Kerosene lamps would be more useful. At least tri-colors are not allowed on sailing vessels over 20 meters in length.
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Re: Stern light relocation.

Last time we sailed at night I had to send a crew member up the mast to refill the red kerosene lamp, we were only displaying a green light and we did not want to confuse other boaters in the area that might know the red over green rule.

I know the lighting rules for sailing and when under power. but what are the lighting rules for a boat that is sailing up on foils going 50 kts. Times have changed

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Re: Stern light relocation.

The only time the lights matter, is when you can't actually see the boat. Therefore, there is no way to know if the light is at deck level or not. Deck level varies between 2 feet and 100ft, depending on vessel. Not to mention, tri-color lights sit atop masts that can push 80ft before the boat's LOA makes them impermissible. Ultimately, there is simply no height restriction, so any skipper inferring data from height is explicitly wrong.

In the end, using light identification alone is a pretty risky way to navigate around a moving vessel at night. This antiquated approach was better than running dark at the time, but it's primitive. Lights burn out. Light are obscured by waves or patchy fog. There are so many light configurations, no one can recall them all from memory.

If I see any lights, of any kind, I immediately identify the vessel on radar and map it's movement. I don't give a damn what lights I see. AIS is even better technology, just not fully adopted.

Honestly, no boat should be permitted to operate at night, outside a lit harbor, without some active, modern form of collision avoidance, other than deck lighting. Lights are like using leaches to cure heart disease.
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Re: Stern light relocation.

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
The only time the lights matter, is when you can't actually see the boat. Therefore, there is no way to know if the light is at deck level or not. Deck level varies between 2 feet and 100ft, depending on vessel. Not to mention, tri-color lights sit atop masts that can push 80ft before the boat's LOA makes them impermissible. Ultimately, there is simply no height restriction, so any skipper inferring data from height is explicitly wrong.

In the end, using light identification alone is a pretty risky way to navigate around a moving vessel at night. This antiquated approach was better than running dark at the time, but it's primitive. Lights burn out. Light are obscured by waves or patchy fog. There are so many light configurations, no one can recall them all from memory.

If I see any lights, of any kind, I immediately identify the vessel on radar and map it's movement. I don't give a damn what lights I see. AIS is even better technology, just not fully adopted.

Honestly, no boat should be permitted to operate at night, outside a lit harbor, without some active, modern form of collision avoidance, other than deck lighting. Lights are like using leaches to cure heart disease.
This really isn’t a thread about wether or not lights should be used, whether they are antiquated, whether there are better methods of identification.
The rules are written in the most common denomination which every vessel should us from a dinghy to and aircraft carrier. The rules were made to make things safe. Because of that they assume all vessels follow them.


You can turn the original OP discussion into a drift on how/ whether vessels should be required to use them, but currently it is the law.

The OP asked about stern positioning. The rules are stated about stern lights.

If you think that placing them on top of a mast will serve to confuse ANY vessel ( dinghy or sir craft carrier) then it would not be a place to put it. If you think it wouldn’t be seen by all boats, then it isn’t the place for it.

On Haleakula the davits with dinghy impeded the original lights from being seen, therefore we had to move it. The best placement for us was the radar pole where it was seen by ALL vessels. There is no ambiguity when approaching Haleakula from beside/ behind that we have a stern light visible.

Not knowing whether you already have a masthead light on the main I can not give you better info. The only thing is don’t confuse anyone.

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