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post #21 of 95 Old 11-17-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I guess you missed the idea that printed charts will still be possible, just not in raster format.

Since you're in the snotty get real mode, most of us have multiple redundant electronic systems. I count four on my boat, all with independent power supplies and gps receivers. If you think I'd lose all of them together.... get real.
I second Rockter's sentiment: Get Real! You can't trust your life to GPS. Here's some "snottieness" from the United States Coast Guard:

"...it is important to remember to use all available means for navigation and maintain proficiency so you can still navigate should your primary GPS fail." https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...lerts/0116.pdf (I strongly recommend reading that Safety Alert!)

GPS is being jammed at the Norwegian-Russian border, in waters around North Korea, and in the Black Sea.

If things get "tense," GPS and Russia's GLONASS will be primary targets. There's a reason why the EU has spent billions developing their own Galileo constellation (not yet operational): satellite navigation is extremely vulnerable to jamming, spoofing, and denial of service. eLoran is not vulnerable - but the US is dragging its feet in deploying it.

But right now, if the global satellite navigation systems fail -- we are thrown back to the 19th century. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017...because-cyber/. I've been practicing for 20 years as a certified information systems security professional (Boeing, ExxonMobil, NASA). Everything I know about GPS scares me. It is extraordinarily vulnerable to denial of service.

My own chart plotters use both GPS and GLONASS. When Galileo comes on line, I'll use that too. But all those systems combined are not 100% reliable. The US Navy has resumed teaching celestial navigation. Why do you suppose they are doing that? "... relying solely on technology could be a recipe for disaster." https://www.stripes.com/news/break-o...again-1.391219

Except for fire on board, I can't imagine a situation that could cause deeper despair than loss of GPS at sea without a backup. I carry a fire extinguisher.. and, a sextant, a current Nautical Almanac, a hand sighting compass, and paper charts. Without paper charts, I can't effectively use the other backup tools.

How are you going to navigate if your chart plotter's GPS goes keel up? Do you put any credence in the Coast Guard's advice? Not having a backup is using luck as a strategy.

I'll one-up Rockter's comment: Denial can be deadly. Get your head out of the sand!

Last edited by patrickbryant; 11-17-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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post #22 of 95 Old 11-17-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
I second Rockter's sentiment: Get Real! You can't trust your life to GPS. Here's some "snottieness" from the United States Coast Guard:

"...it is important to remember to use all available means for navigation and maintain proficiency so you can still navigate should your primary GPS fail." https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...lerts/0116.pdf I strongly recommend reading that Safety Alert!

GPS is being jammed at the Norwegian-Russian border, in waters around North Korea, and in the Black Sea.

If things get "tense" GPS and Russia's GLONASS will be primary targets. There's a reason why the EU has spent billions developing their own Galileo constellation (not yet operational): satellite navigation is extremely vulnerable to jamming, spoofing, and denial of service.

My own chart plotters use both GPS and GLONASS. When Galileo comes on line, I'll use that too. But all those systems combined are not 100% reliable. The US Navy has resumed teaching celestial navigation. Why do you suppose they are doing that? "... relying solely on technology could be a recipe for disaster." https://www.stripes.com/news/break-o...again-1.391219

Except for fire on board, I can't imagine a situation that could cause deeper despair than loss of GPS at sea. I carry a fire extinguisher.. and, a sextant, a hand sighting compass, and paper charts.

How are you going to navigate if your chart plotter's GPS goes keel up? Do you put any credence in the Coast Guard's advice? Not having a backup is using luck as a strategy.
Nobody is stopping you from making paper charts. I have been making my own 8.5x11 charts for years by downloading NOAA charts, cropping, printing them out and laminating them at staples, then putting them together in a booklet . It's easy.

What is changing is the electronic format you downlod in. It seems to me, it should be more customisable, not less than the old Raster charts.

For those who still want to buy paper charts, you can buy from Maptech, Richardsons or whatever.
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
My own chart plotters use both GPS and GLONASS. When Galileo comes on line, I'll use that too. But all those systems combined are not 100% reliable. The US Navy has resumed teaching celestial navigation. Why do you suppose they are doing that? "... relying solely on technology could be a recipe for disaster." https://www.stripes.com/news/break-o...again-1.391219
This is a wise decision. The recreational organizations I know of (US Sailing, RYA, etc.) all have CelNav as a pre-req for ocean passages. My mind boggles that it was considered no longer needed by the navy.

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
Except for fire on board, I can't imagine a situation that could cause deeper despair than loss of GPS at sea without a backup. I carry a fire extinguisher.. and, a sextant, a current Nautical Almanac, a hand sighting compass, and paper charts. Without paper charts, I can't effectively use the other backup tools.
Why not? One doesn't need a paper chart for sight reduction, but I guess using plotting sheets is slightly more work? Even on a phone app I can drop a LOP quite easily, or add a waypoint at calculated coordinates.

What I miss with the RNCs is the relatively cleaner appearance that allows one to easily get an overall understanding at a glance. ENCs require tuning to ensure submarine topography is well represented, and may lack details of onshore structures or landmarks. Automatic layout of labels can also result in much clutter or obscured features.
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post #24 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
I second Rockter's sentiment: Get Real! You can't trust your life to GPS.......

I'll one-up Rockter's comment: Denial can be deadly. Get your head out of the sand!
A few amazing misses in your rant. First, we're talking about redundant electronic Charts, not GPS. It just so happens that my redundant electronic charts are resident in the technology that has GPS, but losing the constellation does not prevent access to the charts. You still take bearings and measure distance in the electronic charts, without it knowing your vessel position, much easier and faster than on paper. Secondly, these charts can be printed. Third, you'll still be able to buy printed charts, if you can't figure out how to use the tech, as I already said, many times, in this thread. Exactly what am I denying??

As to your unrelated point, I've been preaching the vulnerability to GPS navigation for years on this site. It's got nothing to do with charts. Whose head is in the sand.


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post #25 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

This topic keeps coming up here like anchor's, crimps, life rafts, EPIRB's, etc.

I admit to carrying paper charts, all way out of date, to backup my cell phone, iPAD, built in multifunction plotter, radar, compass, depth sounder, EPIRB, inReach, VHF, ham radio, SSB and eyeballs. I don't carry a sextant, but at one point I did know how to use them. I developed enough skill with the sextant so that I could get myself plotted into the correct hemisphere, better than nothing I suppose.

As I get older, the more I think that we are on the verge of the zombie apocalypse. During this event, I expect that the zombie's will deactivate all manners of GPS by jamming the satellites. They may even darken the sky so we can't take sun sights. They may even hit us with an EMP so our electronics will fry.

Under these circumstance, I'd suggest the right tactic is to head immediately out to sea. Point towards point Nemo. Get as far away from land as possible. The Zombie's don't like to swim. Precise navigation will not be required, just stay away from land. If in doubt, bring a roomba with you. It knows whenever it sees something solid, to turn away. Of course, you may feel competent to make this turn away decision on your own, then you can save the cost of the roomba, but remember, you need to make these decisions when you are off watch, so if you can rig a roomba to your autopilot, you'll get more sleep particularly if single handed, which is of course dangerous...etc., etc.

Oh, the humanity
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Last edited by capecodda; 11-18-2019 at 10:06 AM. Reason: typo
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post #26 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Technology is known to fail at some time for some reason. The good news is that tech is getting better and more reliable, less expensive and redundant. Digital charts hold enormous potential for real time updated data and the ability to filter the date so the charts are less cluttered.

I have a few BBA chart kits (paper) on board which I don't actually use. I might take a glance at a large scale chart for an over view refresher. But I don't carry a DR plot on them. Relics from another millennium.

Go with the flow!

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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post #27 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
A few amazing misses in your rant. First, we're talking about redundant electronic Charts, not GPS. It just so happens that my redundant electronic charts are resident in the technology that has GPS, but losing the constellation does not prevent access to the charts. You still take bearings and measure distance in the electronic charts, without it knowing your vessel position, much easier and faster than on paper. Secondly, these charts can be printed. Third, you'll still be able to buy printed charts, if you can't figure out how to use the tech, as I already said, many times, in this thread. Exactly what am I denying??

As to your unrelated point, I've been preaching the vulnerability to GPS navigation for years on this site. It's got nothing to do with charts. Whose head is in the sand.
Ah yes, I see. Anyone who doesn't pre-provision their boat with paper charts only needs to carry a flatbed plotter on board and hardware to interface with their chartplotter so they can print out their own charts if they find a sudden need underway for large-format paper charts. Right. Simple solution. So much more convenient than just having the charts on board. Or they can find a chartplotter that still functions at all without GPS data, and learn how to plot positions and bearings on a little screen using functions for which the chartplotter was never designed. A final alternative (proposed in another post) is to dispense with charts altogether and, by determining your position with a sextant, navigate based entirely on your memory of where destinations and hazards are located, based only on lat and lon. Uh huh. No problem. Who needs paper charts? And: "You still take bearings and measure distance in the electronic charts, without it knowing your vessel position, much easier and faster than on paper." Presumable while performing coastal pilotage (because there is nothing to take bearings to at sea). I must have missed the instructions on how to accomplish that. Please enlighten me.

My point is: over dependence on technology with no backup and no secondary source of navigation - like a paper chart - becomes a hazard. I'm responding to the assertion that a chartplotter or other electronic device receiving positions only from GPS will always be sufficient for safe navigation. But bad and unexpected things never happen at sea. Right? People never have never hit a reef so gigantic that it could be seen on a single sheet atlas of the world, because of an over dependence on a chartplotter.

Sorry if I repeated a point you've already made about the vulnerabilities of GPS. I wasn't aware of your copyright, and certainly the point is too trivial to need repeating. This is a complex topic. I was apparently mistaken by believing the subject was: "NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts." I'm so very sorry if I failed to conform rigidly to the mental model of others. I was under the misconception that this was a discussion, not the transactions of a mutual admiration society. I'll refrain henceforth from disturbing the harmony of group agreement. I obviously don't belong to your tribe. So I'll leave now.

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post #28 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
Ah yes, I see. Anyone who doesn't pre-provision their boat with paper charts only needs to carry a flatbed plotter on board and hardware to interface with their chartplotter so they can print out their own charts if they find a sudden need underway for large-format paper charts. Right. Simple solution. So much more convenient than just having the charts on board. Or they can find a chartplotter that still functions at all without GPS data, and learn how to plot positions and bearings on a little screen using functions for which the chartplotter was never designed. A final alternative (proposed in another post) is to dispense with charts altogether and, by determining your position with a sextant, navigate based entirely on your memory of where destinations and hazards are located, based only on lat and lon. Uh huh. No problem. Who needs charts?

My point is: over dependence on technology with no backup becomes a hazard. I'm responding to the sentiment that a chartplotter or other electronic device receiving positions only from GPS will always be sufficient for safe navigation.

Sorry if I repeated a point you've already made about the vulnerabilities of GPS. I wasn't aware of your copyright, and certainly the point is too trivial to need repeating. This is a complex topic. I was apparently mistaken by believing the subject was: "NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts." I'm so very sorry if I failed to conform rigidly to the mental model of others. I was under the misconception that this was a discussion, not the transactions of a mutual admiration society. I'll refrain henceforth from disturbing the harmony of group agreement. I obviously don't belong to your tribe. I'll leave now.
As others have pointed out one can still print charts. If you want them... get on with it at Staples or wherever.

If you are sailing locally get some of those BBA chart kits. Store them under a salon or berth cushion!

I have a slew of charts from the 90s from the Caribe.... contact me... you can have them cheap.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

No one wants you to leave, differing Opinions are important. Like anything in life being part of a community is getting along with others when your opinions differ. Looking at how you seem to ridicule others in you posts and calling people who don’t see your point of view as “ people with their heads in the sand” will not get you much traction as you are finding out. Present you opinions...listen to the other type A’s on here opinions. Understand there is a wealth of knowledge and experience ...some like and some different than yours.

If you are looking for a site where everyone who agrees with you...this is not your site. Hope you stay😀
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

All of our Navionics charts are stored on the devices and don’t require the GPS function to read them. Only to find our position or update changes.


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