NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts - Page 4 - SailNet Community
 67Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Moderator
 
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London!
Posts: 6,816
Thanks: 68
Thanked 309 Times in 280 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Dock
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Ive sent a few PMs to people asking them to respect other peoples opinions.


Remember, you might hate anothers opinion but theirs is as valid as yours to express.




Mark

Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


People can say they want freedom, but offer them the keys to what chains them, a map to where they want to go,
And they'll turn it down for the cell they know

Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-18-2019 at 12:31 PM.
MarkofSeaLife is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
Or they can find a chartplotter that still functions at all without GPS data, and learn how to plot positions and bearings on a little screen using functions for which the chartplotter was never designed.
This is one of the reasons I'm not fond of dedicated chart plotters alone; the UI tends to be horrible and the features limited. But, as already mentioned, GPS and electronic charts are two separate things, and need not be tied together. Good software on a tablet is quite effective for navigating, and it's a simple matter to add redundancy.

I am also curious, with official paper charts being phased out:
  1. How are chart carriage requirements impacted for those without resources to fit ECDIS?
  2. What will the USCG do for the plotting section of their exams?
chef2sail likes this.
requiem is online now  
post #33 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 20,625
Thanks: 82
Thanked 582 Times in 558 Posts
Rep Power: 11
   
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
Ah yes, I see. Anyone who doesn't pre-provision their boat with paper charts only needs to carry a flatbed plotter on board and hardware to interface with their chartplotter so they can print out their own charts if they find a sudden need underway for large-format paper charts. Right. Simple solution. So much more convenient than just having the charts on board.
No one said you couldnít or shouldnít print them prior to your passage. Sarcasm isnít helping your argument. Itís just that they are not very likely to be needed, especially with redundant technology.

Quote:
Or they can find a chartplotter that still functions at all without GPS data, and learn how to plot positions and bearings on a little screen using functions for which the chartplotter was never designed. A final alternative (proposed in another post) is to dispense with charts altogether and, by determining your position with a sextant, navigate based entirely on your memory of where destinations and hazards are located, based only on lat and lon. Uh huh. No problem. Who needs paper charts?
iPad Navigation and Charting apps are actually quite good at providing data and effectively allowing for passage planning. Perhaps you consider it a little screen, but Iíve used it quite successfully, when my primary chart plotter went down. I did not resort to paper. Itís not even all that much smaller than my plotter screen.

Although, your aggressive attitude suggests you missed my early post that actually says I carry paper. I just never use it.

Quote:
And: "You still take bearings and measure distance in the electronic charts, without it knowing your vessel position, much easier and faster than on paper." Presumable while performing coastal pilotage (because there is nothing to take bearings to at sea). I must have missed the instructions on how to accomplish that. Please enlighten me.
Do you really want to be enlightened? You do this exactly the same way you do it on paper. You set the first waypoint wherever youíve determined, or estimate via dead reckoning, that you are. Then you set the next at your destination. It can be 1 mile or 1,000 miles away. In two seconds it gives you bearing (to destination, not to a coastal land feature) and distance.

Quote:
My point is: over dependence on technology with no backup and no secondary source of navigation - like a paper chart - becomes a hazard. I'm responding to the assertion that a chartplotter or other electronic device receiving positions only from GPS will always be sufficient for safe navigation. But bad and unexpected things never happen at sea. Right? People never have never hit a reef so gigantic that it could be seen on a single sheet atlas of the world, because of an over dependence on a chartplotter.

Sorry if I repeated a point you've already made about the vulnerabilities of GPS. I wasn't aware of your copyright, and certainly the point is too trivial to need repeating. This is a complex topic. I was apparently mistaken by believing the subject was: "NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts." I'm so very sorry if I failed to conform rigidly to the mental model of others. I was under the misconception that this was a discussion, not the transactions of a mutual admiration society. I'll refrain henceforth from disturbing the harmony of group agreement. I obviously don't belong to your tribe. So I'll leave now.
Iíve nothing to add to this last rant. I think youíre trying to pull new tricks out of the hat, after accusing me of having my head in the sand, only to receive your comeuppance for being so mistaken. No need to leave with your ball, after backing yourself in a corner. Hope you stick around.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
 
post #34 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Senior Member
 
svjobeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Marathon, FL
Posts: 248
Thanks: 7
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 12
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

We still use paper charts, still keep a running fix, and still make routine log entries...in addition to our chartplotter iPad, and phones.

I would like to see them stay. It will be interesting to see what other nations do in this regard...I'm not aware of any of them phasing out their paper charts, though I suppose it is happening elsewhere as well.

Bill & Lisa Ballard
S/V Jo Beth
1984 Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, Hull #16

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
- Mark Twain
svjobeth is offline  
post #35 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Moderator
 
Arcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 3,825
Thanks: 213
Thanked 197 Times in 193 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Looks like there is a beta in place so you can play with making your own custom charts. It looks pretty nice. I posted a screenshot of a custom chart I was playing with. Looks pretty nice.

https://devgis.charttools.noaa.gov/pod/
Attached Thumbnails
20191118_180252.jpg  
Morild likes this.
Arcb is offline  
post #36 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Bahamas
Posts: 3,942
Thanks: 3
Thanked 143 Times in 141 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Paper maps, charts and centerfolds..oh yeah
Dont freak out. Private sec will deliver
Can sleep well
RegisteredUser is online now  
post #37 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,551
Thanks: 139
Thanked 196 Times in 187 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

You run out of fuel or racors to clean bad fuel. No alternator. No genset. You have a lightening strike and you didnít have time to put the iPad, cellphone,etc in the stove and the laptop was plugged in now fried. Itís cloudy so no solar but it doesnít matter because all your electrics (as well as electronics) are toast.
Sure you take out a stick and figure out apparent noon but beyond having latitude youíre on your own. Folks got around for thousands of years without electronics. Yes, there were more shipwrecks. Yes, what we have is a vast improvement. Remember people spied, died and killed to get PAPER charts in the past. The dominance of the English navy was based on good charts and an accurate chronometer.
Laugh at me. I carry charts, a knot stick and drop line. I figure even without a fix Iíll know the general areas Iím in. I figure I just want to know where the hard edges are. I figure from triangulation with the binocs I wonít sink the boat. Thatís good enough.
Boat has multiple redundancies for gps and charts. If you have no electricity or way to recharge things youíre out of luck. We carry lots of batteries but theyíre no help for a pad or phone.

BTW like cruising books and chart packs. Very helpful when going to new places. Wife and I sit down and decide where to go. Very hard to do that with friends (especially when lit ) on screens.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
post #38 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Bahamas
Posts: 3,942
Thanks: 3
Thanked 143 Times in 141 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
....Very hard to do that with friends (especially when lit ) ....
Thats just plain funny...
Minnesail likes this.
RegisteredUser is online now  
post #39 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,551
Thanks: 139
Thanked 196 Times in 187 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

People need to lighten up. Donít worry ....be happy.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
post #40 of 95 Old 11-18-2019
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 78
Thanks: 16
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 1
 
Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
Ah yes, I see. Anyone who doesn't pre-provision their boat with paper charts only needs to carry a flatbed plotter on board and hardware to interface with their chartplotter so they can print out their own charts if they find a sudden need underway for large-format paper charts. Right. Simple solution. So much more convenient than just having the charts on board. Or they can find a chartplotter that still functions at all without GPS data, and learn how to plot positions and bearings on a little screen using functions for which the chartplotter was never designed. A final alternative (proposed in another post) is to dispense with charts altogether and, by determining your position with a sextant, navigate based entirely on your memory of where destinations and hazards are located, based only on lat and lon. Uh huh. No problem. Who needs paper charts? And: "You still take bearings and measure distance in the electronic charts, without it knowing your vessel position, much easier and faster than on paper." Presumable while performing coastal pilotage (because there is nothing to take bearings to at sea). I must have missed the instructions on how to accomplish that. Please enlighten me.

My point is: over dependence on technology with no backup and no secondary source of navigation - like a paper chart - becomes a hazard. I'm responding to the assertion that a chartplotter or other electronic device receiving positions only from GPS will always be sufficient for safe navigation. But bad and unexpected things never happen at sea. Right? People never have never hit a reef so gigantic that it could be seen on a single sheet atlas of the world, because of an over dependence on a chartplotter.

Sorry if I repeated a point you've already made about the vulnerabilities of GPS. I wasn't aware of your copyright, and certainly the point is too trivial to need repeating. This is a complex topic. I was apparently mistaken by believing the subject was: "NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts." I'm so very sorry if I failed to conform rigidly to the mental model of others. I was under the misconception that this was a discussion, not the transactions of a mutual admiration society. I'll refrain henceforth from disturbing the harmony of group agreement. I obviously don't belong to your tribe. So I'll leave now.
Don't leave. Things can get a bit testy at times, and tone can get very distorted on something that is typed. Everyone has an opinion, and a number of folks on here have truly jaw-dropping experience that is amazing. So hang around and share your knowledge.
cherylchecheryl is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome