NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts - Page 6 - SailNet Community
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post #51 of 95 Old 11-19-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Some perspective is needed here. NOAA makes charts for US waters, and mostly inland and coastal US at that. US territories also. They do not make charts for world-wide voyaging. Other countries and companies provide those charts. NOAA is not stopping production of paper charts - they are just making charts using a new data format. You can still buy paper NOAA charts.

You will not get lost on the US coastal and inland waters. At least you shouldn't. You won't be going around the world, or even outside US coastal waters, with NOAA paper charts. At least you shouldn't.

If your angst is that you will come to grief along the US coastal or inland waters because your GPS goes out, along with all your electronic devices, and you only have the new ENC format NOAA paper charts instead of the old RNC format ones - you are over-reacting.

Celestial navigation is not going to get you into Jupiter FL Inlet. It probably won't get you into San Francisco Bay.

Mark
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post #52 of 95 Old 11-19-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

I know this is tangential to the topic, but anyone who is interested in how automation-dependence decreases safety may find this video interesting. It's old: 1997. But the problem - even though recognized that long ago - hasn't gotten better. Gadget addiction.

I think of this issue every time I see another skipper go by with his head buried in a screen, or hear someone planning to cross an ocean with only computers to provide course guidance.

American Airlines training: "Children of the Magenta Line."

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post #53 of 95 Old 11-19-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Ironically, the airlines have been moving to iPads for their charts too. Again, this is not the same as gps navigation, only charting.

It really cracks me up that what we can do safely at hundreds of knots in the clouds, will kill you at 6 knots on the water, with your house in tow to take a nap in and figure it out in the morning.
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Celestial navigation is not going to get you into Jupiter FL Inlet. It probably won't get you into San Francisco Bay.

Mark
True. One transitions to coastal pilotage as soon as the coast is in view, referencing compass bearings to prominences (you have a hand sighting compass, right?) and referring to the chart.

If it's clear enough to use celestial navigation to find the San Francisco environment from seaward, it's clear enough to use my eyeballs and pilotage to navigate into the Bay. If not, I'd wait offshore till I could navigate visually. I wouldn't try passing through the channel and under the bridge without at least one mile visibility - even with all my electronics working and the best chartplotter - because I need to see traffic. Not all of which has AIS. If the dewpoint to ambient temperature spread isn't more than 2 degrees C (3.6 degrees F) and the temperature isn't rising, I don't attempt it. The CG is happy to give you those numbers, if you aren't too shy to call and ask.

When it isn't clear enough to use pilotage or a sextant: "one should never be far from a good D.R.*" (marked on the chart).

* Deduced Reckoned position. (No, it's not "Dead" reckoned. That's an old misprint that got filtered down to us by an idiot editor from the abbreviation "ded.")

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post #55 of 95 Old 11-20-2019
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
True. One transitions to coastal pilotage as soon as the coast is in view, referencing compass bearings to prominences (you have a hand sighting compass, right?) and referring to the chart.

If it's clear enough to use celestial navigation to find the San Francisco environment from seaward, it's clear enough to use my eyeballs and pilotage to navigate into the Bay. If not, I'd wait offshore till I could navigate visually. I wouldn't try passing through the channel and under the bridge without at least one mile visibility - even with all my electronics working and the best chartplotter - because I need to see traffic. Not all of which has AIS. If the dewpoint to ambient temperature spread isn't more than 2 degrees C (3.6 degrees F) and the temperature isn't rising, I don't attempt it. The CG is happy to give you those numbers, if you aren't too shy to call and ask.

When it isn't clear enough to use pilotage or a sextant: "one should never be far from a good D.R.*" (marked on the chart).

* Deduced Reckoned position. (No, it's not "Dead" reckoned. That's an old misprint that got filtered down to us by an idiot editor from the abbreviation "ded.")
No need to sit out and out wait the fog. Turn your radar on. Mine seems to work well in low visibility as well as being superimposed on MFD with the AIS
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickbryant View Post
* Deduced Reckoned position. (No, it's not "Dead" reckoned. That's an old misprint that got filtered down to us by an idiot editor from the abbreviation "ded.")
While that’s an interesting historical fact, we all need to keep up with the times. Even the USCG navigation standards manual refers to it as dead reckoning. That is fully adopted nomenclature now. Telling a newb to say deduced would cause confusion.

Almost the entire language has evolved over time and linguists embrace it. If you really want to blow your mind, read up on the great vowel shift. Several hundred years ago, none of our vowels were pronounced the same as today. If you’re an English speaker and we’re transported back to an English street corner in the 14 century, you wouldn’t recognize a word they were saying. Life moves on.


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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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we’re transported back to an English street corner in the 14 century, you wouldn’t recognize a word they were saying.
Mate, I'm in London now and I can't even ask directions


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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Mate, I'm in London now and I can't even ask directions


Have you visited the Science Museum to see Harrison's Chronometers? Or did you get lost ;-)
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

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Originally Posted by tempest View Post
Have you visited the Science Museum to see Harrison's Chronometers? Or did you get lost ;-)


Ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I found it fine, but I accidentally dropped the oversized watch and it doesn't work now. I quietly slipped it back on the shelf


I left a $10 donation so they can buy a new one
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Re: NOAA Seeks Comment on Ending ALL 'Traditional' Paper Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
While that’s an interesting historical fact, we all need to keep up with the times. Even the USCG navigation standards manual refers to it as dead reckoning. That is fully adopted nomenclature now. Telling a newb to say deduced would cause confusion.

Almost the entire language has evolved over time and linguists embrace it. If you really want to blow your mind, read up on the great vowel shift. Several hundred years ago, none of our vowels were pronounced the same as today. If you’re an English speaker and we’re transported back to an English street corner in the 14 century, you wouldn’t recognize a word they were saying. Life moves on.
The etymology is surprisingly complex. This (long) article traces some of the controversy: Is ?dead reckoning? short for ?deduced reckoning?? ? The Straight Dope

While I don't see how the navigation technique has anything to do with death, and that the use of "dead" instead of "deduced" is more likely to confuse newbies, I don't feel any more compelled to correct someone when they write "dead" reckoning than I do when they write "leech" instead of "lee edge." Actually I prefer the modern aviation term "trailing edge" and other modern terms that refer to airfoils.

One can't appeal to a central authority on English. None exists. If I were teaching sailing, I would use the common terms, prefaced with the statement that: "these are historical terms invented long before aerodynamics became a science," and then mention the more modern terms that would be helpful to a student who goes on to study the behavior of airfoils.

Last edited by patrickbryant; 11-20-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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