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post #31 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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What about the boat barrelling through the dark at something like 20 knots that killed those Chinese? You admire him, too?
Yes as a matter of fact I do admire anyone that can compete on that level and I also feel empathy for him as well. I'm sure that having that episode of his life hanging over his head has to be a heavy burden. I don't judge. I wasn't there and neither were you. It's easy to call the shots after an event has occurred. Different story when it's in real time. I didn't always feel this way. I had to be slapped around by life for a while before it seeped in. Maybe one day you too will understand.
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post #32 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post

If race organizers tell spectator boats to stay out of a designated racing area, as was the case in the rtw race that I described earlier, spectator boats should comply.
Unless "designated" by Coast Guard or other legal "authority" such "designation"
carries no weight.

The hysterical laughter you hear as you drive a way in your"new" boat ..... is the seller.

Last edited by boatpoker; 12-11-2019 at 01:11 AM.
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post #33 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post
I don't know a single sailor who is cavalier about giving way to commercial vessels, but one will occasionally get a horn because he misjudged the vessels course or speed.

If you knowingly encroach onto a clearly delineated race course, whether on public or private property, and your boat is damaged by a race boat that was a give way vessel under the rules, you might nevertheless be denied your damages in a court action based on the tort principle of assumption of risk, depending on the particular facts.

Some auto races take place on public roads, such as the Pikes Peak race, and you can't foolishly encroach on a delineated, closed race course and then expect to be compensated for your damages if you get hit by a racer.

Likewise, you can't wander into a hydroplane race course during a race on a river and expect to recover your damages if you're hit by a hydroplane doing 110 kts. In appropriate cases, the courts might conclude that you assumed the risk of being damaged.

You can't park your boat in the middle of a delineated race course and watch a racer approaching you from 1-2 miles away, and make no effort to get out of his way, and then expect to recover your damages. The racer has defenses to a tort action, such as assumption of risk, contributory negligence and last clear chance.

If race organizers tell spectator boats to stay out of a designated racing area, as was the case in the rtw race that I described earlier, spectator boats should comply.
At what point, in your opinion, does a vessel, no matter where it is, not underway or making way, become the burdened vessel, under the ColRegs?
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post #34 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
So you are saying you admire poor judgment and imprudent seamanship just because he got away with it this time? What about the boat barrelling through the dark at something like 20 knots that killed those Chinese? You admire him, too?
The skipper in the video isn't good, just lucky!
Capta, that original video looks very much like the Sydney to Hobart race start that happens every boxing day on Sydney Harbour, (I may be wrong but it looks like it) and if it is there are large parts of the harbour that are out of bounds to the spectator fleet, delineated by marker buoys placed prior to the start. IF that is the case then the spectator fleet that may have encroached are indeed in the wrong, though rarely held accountable.

Cheers, Uncle Bob the 1st from Sydney Aust.
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post #35 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

That was indeed the star of the Sydney to Hobart race. In this case everyone of those spectator boats were sitting where they were to get a better view of the race. pushing the boundary lines of the course, all under power and using power to stay in position and knew the race boats would on a course to where they where. dam good sailors to avoid the power boats that knew that they should not be that close and expect a 100' boats under sail to maneuver around them.

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post #36 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
I doubt that you have 900 foot container ships coming and going around Newport. If these guys were messing with me, then you can bet they were doing the same with the ships and that the pilot's association was all over the CG to reign in the racers, too.
Bottom line, if you are out playing, keep clear of those working, no matter the rules. I'm not going to put my vessel, passengers (up to 49) or crew in jeopardy to avoid some jerk trying to win a race of ZERO importance to anyone but that skipper. Maybe they'll put a star on the wall of the YC with the inscription; "He killed his crew and died trying to win a senseless race".
And just to put things in perspective, I raced on the Bay for 7 seasons, taking first place in class in 5 of those 7, so I have some idea of what racing toy boats in unimportant races is all about. The only reason a skipper would put himself (and his crew) in jeopardy with a commercial vessel is for the thrill, because it certainly is not prudent seamanship.
Let's try this again, as I think you missed my question entirely.

First, we do have container ships in East Passage, but they are not relevant to my question. None around at the time.

Second, I'm not racing. I'm just frequently transiting the passage and meet one of the day sailing schooners out of Newport.

The schooner is under sail, with water clearly exiting the exhaust. They always raise the sails, even if motor sailing for the tourists.

We are on a collision course with the schooner and have stand on responsibilities, according to the ColRegs, no matter whether they are sailing or being propelled by machinery.

That's the scenario.

Out of courtesy, I would try to maneuver to give the working vessel their tack across the passage, but that's not always safe. The passage is often full of boats and most often there is another nearby, who I would impede instead, clearly in violation of the ColRegs, as they would expect me to stand on.

Am I to give way no matter what to a day sailing schooner? That seems to be their expectation, as I've never seen one move. Like I said above, there is nothing about skinny water or narrow channels that's preventing them from tacking. If there were, I'd fully get it and would be clearly required to give way and those around me should expect me to.

I'm happy to be courteous and try to be, whenever remotely possible. I don't push it, just for the sake of the "rules". However, there comes a point when the schooner needs to give way, as expected, and they never do.

Do you agree with this scenario (not meeting up with racers)?


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post #37 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
At what point, in your opinion, does a vessel, no matter where it is, not underway or making way, become the burdened vessel, under the ColRegs?
Could this unintentional be a trick question? I don't feel like getting my copy, but here is my recollection.

First, if you are off the dock, mooring or anchor, you're "underway". ColRegs apply, regardless of whether you are drifting or "making way".

If you're not underway, you can't be making way. You can be underway and not making way.

I think you're asking when a drifting vessel becomes the burden vessel under the ColRegs. Technically, drifting has nothing to do with it. A drifting vessel is still required to engage propulsion and give way, if they are lower on the food chain. You just sort out the vessel type priority first (Not Under Command, RIAM, Constrained by Draft, Fishing, Sail, Power, Seaplane). Then, if the vessels have the same priority, you sort power to power or sail to sail.

Of course, there is the catch all ColReg that says everyone must give way, when it becomes evident the correct party is not doing so.


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post #38 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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Originally Posted by BarryL View Post
....The around Long Island regatta starts in New York harbor. Over 100 yachts in the race. Lots of commercial vessels in the area, large container ships, large ferries, etc. At the captains meeting the race organizers are very clear that if a race boat impedes a commercial vessel the race boat will be dq’ed.......
That works, if the race rule is to stay far enough away that there is no risk of collision and the ColRegs never apply.

I'm guessing they are also considering that Rule 9 probably applies in the Narrow Channels of the harbor, where no sailboat can ever impede any vessel transiting a narrow channel.


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post #39 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

We've volunteered as a marshal during 2 Volvo races in Newport. We did this from a power boat.

Some clarifications. True, we have no authority; however, the exclusion zone was established by the CG. We were there to try to nudge people into compliance and maintain the exclusion zone. If people did not comply when politely asked, we contacted the CG or harbormasters who were present and had authority. Very occasionally we had to do this. Most of the time it was a guy with a gold chain running a stinkpot. Very occasionally, it was a sailor who didn't believe there was an exclusion zone or it didn't apply to them. Interestingly, sometimes by captains clearly licensed and operating tourist vessels that clearly should have known better.

On the other side of this argument, there was at least one instance where we were assigned to an area near the Newport Bridge. A couple of 65's decided to race into the spectators outside the excision zone. They were not disqualified. It was more than slightly scary. Mostly we advised people to stay put, and give the racer's the chance to maneuver around them. Sometimes we moved people in real time. It was not fun. IMHO, these boats should have received large penalties or been disqualified.

After that incident, we've stopped volunteering.

My personal attitude as someone with a 100 ton who's taught the rules in class, is I won't risk my boat or my crew intentionally, no matter what the rules say.

IMHO sailing through the spectator fleet, no matter where they are, at 20 knots in a Volvo 65 is irresponsible. Entering an CG exclusion zone as a spectator is irresponsible. Not knowing is not an excuse. Not having a rules committee writing rules that make it disqualifying to race into a spectator fleet is irresponsible race management.

And as far as normal day-to-day racing is concerned, involved in the race or passing through, common sense and safety should override your need to get someplace, your rights on the water, or your need to be able to brag at the bar that you won a meaningless race.

I know, someone will post something about a close stand on situation where if everyone followed the rules a collision would be avoided.

My advice is, assume no one knows the rules, and you'll be right more often than not.

End of rant .
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post #40 of 74 Old 12-11-2019
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Re: insanity afloat

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
At what point, in your opinion, does a vessel, no matter where it is, not underway or making way, become the burdened vessel, under the ColRegs?
Think about it this way. In an auto accident on public streets, traffic laws govern which driver gets the ticket, but tort law governs which one gets compensated for his damages. Even though the other guy got the ticket under the traffic laws, the right-of-way driver might nevertheless not be able to recover his damages in the tort case. You can't knowingly and foolishly put yourself in danger and then ask the other guy to compensate you when the very thing happens that you should have foreseen.

The same is true for the ColRegs.

If race organizers set up a perimeter to protect spectators and racers alike from danger, and you encroach on that perimeter because you want a better view of the race, don't be surprised if the court denies your claim for damages because you assumed the risk, or were guilty of contributory negligence. When someone establishes perimeters to protect spectators from danger, reasonable people would respect those perimeters. Ignoring those perimeters is unreasonable and suggests that you are assuming the risk of a known danger. Courts don't generally favor foolish behavior.
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