LG bifacial solar panel interest - Page 3 - SailNet Community
 16Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 38 Old 12-21-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 3,142
Thanks: 4
Thanked 125 Times in 119 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Ok. 🙄

Mark

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 38 Old 12-21-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 3,142
Thanks: 4
Thanked 125 Times in 119 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

I'm not sure how the Amish are on this thread, given they don't have computers or electricity.

If you aren't living without any electricity, and without an automobile or any other transportation beyond animals, and without any communication and entertainment devices, and you do not refuse to partake in any secondary advantage of them like walking on a lit sidewalk, and you are complaining about taking advantage of other countries workers and standards of living - then you are a hypocrite.

I did not start this thread as a political one. I simply thought I could get some panels for a reasonable price with some other buyers to make up a minimum quantity, but I couldn't, so the thread is done.

Mark

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #23 of 38 Old 12-21-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 127
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I'm not sure how the Amish are on this thread, given they don't have computers or electricity.

If you aren't living without any electricity, and without an automobile or any other transportation beyond animals, and without any communication and entertainment devices, and you do not refuse to partake in any secondary advantage of them like walking on a lit sidewalk, and you are complaining about taking advantage of other countries workers and standards of living - then you are a hypocrite.

I did not start this thread as a political one. I simply thought I could get some panels for a reasonable price with some other buyers to make up a minimum quantity, but I couldn't, so the thread is done.

Mark
However you DID make the remark about "the greatest country on earth" and how you can't wait until Nov 3, which most definitely IS political. On the other hand, my recent post stuck to the facts and pointed out WHY those solar panels are so cheap, and incidentally, why those tariffs or import fees that you seem to dislike so much are the only way companies (and workers) in countries where the environment is protected and workers like to live above the poverty line can compete. That's not really political, just the way it is. I wish tariffs weren't necessary either but when the alternative is all electronics production jobs inevitably being moved to 3rd world countries where workers can be oppressed and the environment polluted at will, it seems to be the less bad alternative to me.

You're right that many other things we consume are at least partially produced in these 3rd world countries so inadvertently supporting these companies is almost impossible to avoid entirely, but solar panels are an especially obvious example of exploitation, both of the environment AND the workers used to produce them. That's why Chinese or South Korean solar panels are about 1/3 the cost of a panel built entirely in the US but with other products the differences aren't anywhere near so extreme. For example, you can't buy a comparable South Korean car to one made in the US for 1/3 of the money. It might be 25% less but not even more than 100% less like solar panels are.

I don't claim to exist entirely on 100% US made products but I don't think it's fair to say it's hypocritical to try to avoid products with the most egregious examples of environmental and worker exploitation. If you'd stuck to simply trying to find someone to help you get a good deal on solar panels I'd have no issue with that. but when you include sarcastic elements about the "greatest country on earth" and the date of our next presidential election, then YOU are the one bringing politics into the discussion. Next time, try to stick to the subject of the thread and keep your politics to yourself, and then I will have no need to explain WHY those prices are so cheap and why I disagree with the political viewpoint you interjected into someplace where it doesn't belong.
CVAT and senormechanico like this.

Last edited by jtsailjt; 12-21-2019 at 12:30 PM.
jtsailjt is online now  
 
post #24 of 38 Old 12-21-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 3,142
Thanks: 4
Thanked 125 Times in 119 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Phones. Made in Chinese sweatshops. No tariffs. About as egregious an example as can be. Do you have one?

Did you see the part about no tariffs on those panels for the large commercial installation firms? Interesting.

How about all the other large individual companies that got tariffs removed just for their products or materials, while everyone else pays them?

Yes, the purpose of the recent tariffs is mostly to improve the lifestyles and standards of living of the poorer people in other countries.

An unusually magnanimous and brave gesture on the part of the current administration. I see air quality in China improving already, not to mention hoards of manufacturing moving back home.

Mark
Minnesail likes this.

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat

Last edited by colemj; 12-21-2019 at 12:43 PM.
colemj is offline  
post #25 of 38 Old 12-21-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 127
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Phones. Made in Chinese sweatshops. No tariffs. About as egregious an example as can be. Do you have one?

Did you see the part about no tariffs on those panels for the large commercial installation firms? Interesting.

How about all the other large individual companies that got tariffs removed just for their products or materials, while everyone else pays them?

Yes, the purpose of the recent tariffs is mostly to improve the lifestyles and standards of living of the poorer people in other countries.

An unusually magnanimous and brave gesture on the part of the current administration. I see air quality in China improving already, not to mention hoards of manufacturing moving back home.

Mark
Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a US made smartphone that's available to buy, are you? But with solar panels we still DO have a choice, and hopefully will continue to unless everyone chooses to ignore all the issues involved and buys cheap 3rd world panels, which will result in the bankrupting of producers who are trying to compete while observing environmental standards and paying a living wage.

If you think it's' magnanimous and brave to encourage keeping jobs in the US and taking away at least some of the incentive for 3rd world companies to pollute, then why not support that by "voting" with your $$ for solar panels made in places where the environment is protected and workers are not oppressed to the degree they are in China or even South Korea? Why whine and complain about the political decision that forces you to do what you seem to realize is the right thing to do for the environment and for poor workers anyway?

I'm planning to put Solbian flexible panels on my new hard top. As far as I can tell they are made in Italy and the sunpower cells they use are made in FLorida and they cost about 4X as much as the same capacity of rigid panels would cost. But to me it's worth it because I expect great quality control and I like the convenience of being able to step on them to access the mid boom area of my center cockpit boat. I'm not saying I wouldn't be tempted if I could get the same sort of panels from a 3rd world producer but I'm not even looking for that option and prefer to think I'm going to "get what I pay for" by going with the Solbian panels. If anyone happens to have a better option in a quality panel not made by nearly slave labor, I'd love to hear about them. But, barring that, I'm going to order Solbian SR panels in the next few weeks. Another way to rationalize buying the more expensive panels is that if you buy quality ones, they can easily last for a decade. So, if I pay about $2000 for the flexible Solbian panels vs paying $500 for some rigid 3rd world panels of similar capacity, it'll only cost me an additional $150/year, or less than 50 cents a day for all the solar power they produce for my boat. When you think about it that way, I think it's pretty obvious that all of us who own cruising sailboats can easily afford to do the "right thing" and cough up the extra $$ for panels made in places where the environment is protected and factory workers are paid enough to live on.

I did enjoy reading about the technological part of this thread regarding how they're able to get energy from the backs of these panels. Greater resistance to losses due to relatively small shadows and getting energy from the backs of panels as well as from the front seems like exciting improvements to me that are especially applicable to sailors with limited real estate and mounting option. Hopefully this technology will soon be available in more panels. If you can stand to wait for another 6 months or so, I'd expect to see this dual sided technology to be available from other producers as well.
jtsailjt is online now  
post #26 of 38 Old 12-21-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 3,142
Thanks: 4
Thanked 125 Times in 119 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

If you read my posts, I need a 360-400W bifacial panel. There are only two manufacturers, and they are not US ones.

The constraint is the mounting space and power need. Even if I could string together enough flexible Solarium panels, this would be impractical and a poor substitute.

In the same vein, you could do everything you do now with your smartphone stringing together only US made products, but you choose not to for practical reasons. Until you choose otherwise, you will need to leave your solar panel high horse.

You have made some interesting assumptions about how these LG panels are made, and the environmental and cultural problems associated with it. The facts are not on your side, and a simple search on the manufacturing facilities would enlighten you.

Solar manufacturing in South Korea is hardly the third world in terms of environmental harm, poor working conditions, and worker exploitation. The government-incentivized coal industry in West Virginia? Amazon's tax-break warehouse packing and distribution centers? The entire subsidized US fast food industry? Those are closer.

Mark
Minnesail likes this.

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #27 of 38 Old 12-21-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 127
Thanks: 6
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
If you read my posts, I need a 360-400W bifacial panel. There are only two manufacturers, and they are not US ones.

The constraint is the mounting space and power need. Even if I could string together enough flexible Solarium panels, this would be impractical and a poor substitute.

In the same vein, you could do everything you do now with your smartphone stringing together only US made products, but you choose not to for practical reasons. Until you choose otherwise, you will need to leave your solar panel high horse.

You have made some interesting assumptions about how these LG panels are made, and the environmental and cultural problems associated with it. The facts are not on your side, and a simple search on the manufacturing facilities would enlighten you.

Solar manufacturing in South Korea is hardly the third world in terms of environmental harm, poor working conditions, and worker exploitation. The government-incentivized coal industry in West Virginia? Amazon's tax-break warehouse packing and distribution centers? The entire subsidized US fast food industry? Those are closer.

Mark
LOL, you "need" these particular panels and no other panels will do. Sorry, but that just doesn't pass the straight face test. You "want" them and don't care about the pay of those who make them or what it does to the environment. I'm really not on a crusade and would have had no comment or judgement if you hadn't been whining about the tariffs that are necessary to level the playing field so western workers can compete against companies that are taking advantage of Asian environmental laws and low wages in order to make super cheap products. I told you what top pay is in South Korea and you're right it's not quite third world, but do you think $1200/month is enough to pay for a skilled factory worker to top out at? Look up air quality standards in South Korea and you'll find they are among the very worst in the world. Maybe LG is "different" but if that's true then why not make solar panels they intend to sell in the US here in the US to avoid the cost of transporting them here? I've been there and seen the yellow haze like Los Angeles was like 30 years ago and it's nasty.

Name a American made smartphone and that's what I'll buy next because you're right about how they are made in Asia and it's disgusting, just like how Asian solar panels are made. I hate to contribute to either but with cellphones we no longer have a choice. Lets do what we can to not let that happen with solar panels too, even if it's a bit inconvenient and costs us a few $$.
jtsailjt is online now  
post #28 of 38 Old 12-21-2019
dadio917
 
dadio917's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lake Tahoe....boat is in SF Bay
Posts: 314
Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Quote:
I'm planning to put Solbian flexible panels on my new hard top.
Being not on a budget and also a believer you get what you pay for I was going to buy solbian but the more I looked into Renogy I just couldn't justify the price. I fully suspected find some defects with the renogy panels but after a hard season with over 5k sea miles have been pleasantly surprised. I monitored performance victron mppt controller and often saw output more than spec. So am very happy with the decision. Many people on this forum have been happy with Solbian, so just take this as a data point.

Dadio917
Valiant 39
dadio917 is online now  
post #29 of 38 Old 12-21-2019 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 3,142
Thanks: 4
Thanked 125 Times in 119 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Again, you "need" a smartphone, and no other solution will do for you.

Like my space constraint and power requirement, you are not willing to consider stringing together other solutions that can accomplish phone calls, GPS routing, and internet connection. Because it is inconvenient and costs more money. A smartphone is just a convenient package for you, as a single panel is for me.

Name me a US made (totally, not just an assembled one using other country labor and environment) solar panel that is of 60 cell dimensions and provides 425 watt output. And is sold to consumers.

And show me how that panel is made as clean as LG makes theirs in South Korea. You can't lump all products from there together in your terms, unless you are willing to lump all US products together with the worst of US manufacturing - Intel chips are not strip mined coal.

Again, the tariffs are waived on these panels for the large commercial installation companies. It is only the average Joe like you and me who are paying them. This is true for most of the tariffs - the large companies have achieved waivers, while the small people are paying the costs.

You may have some misconception about the purpose of the current tariffs. They are most definitely not aimed at improving quality of life, the environment, nor working conditions in other countries like you say they are. They aren't even aimed at "leveling the playing field". Just like the current government subsidies, tax breaks, and other incentives are not improving the quality of life, the environment, nor working conditions in the US coal, fast food, sugar, mega-corporation warehouse/distribution, etc, nor have they leveled the playing field.

If you were truly concerned about these things, you would start with your own country. Stop buying things from Amazon. Don't eat fast food, get involved with shutting down dirty fuel industries or making them compete fairly with cleaner competition.

Otherwise, it is hypocritical to just pick a random thing like solar panels solely based on you don't like the implied economic views of the person buying one.

Mark

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #30 of 38 Old 12-21-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The Bahamas
Posts: 4,023
Thanks: 3
Thanked 149 Times in 147 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: LG bifacial solar panel interest

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadio917 View Post
Being not on a budget and also a believer you get what you pay for I was going to buy solbian but the more I looked into Renogy I just couldn't justify the price. I fully suspected find some defects with the renogy panels but after a hard season with over 5k sea miles have been pleasantly surprised. I monitored performance victron mppt controller and often saw output more than spec. So am very happy with the decision. Many people on this forum have been happy with Solbian, so just take this as a data point.
I have 1 renogy 160w panel and it gives me 2 more amps than my 200w panel.
Theyre about $230.
Im going to buy another one
RegisteredUser is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome