NO PFDs - Page 3 - SailNet Community
 34Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 51 Old 12-22-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Nanaimo BC
Posts: 868
Thanks: 0
Thanked 48 Times in 48 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: NO PFDs

I don't understand the fancy message in post #19. The second and third phase read the same. Is this what was intended? Am I dense?
Arcb likes this.
paulinnanaimo is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 51 Old 12-22-2019
Moderator
 
Arcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 3,949
Thanks: 214
Thanked 200 Times in 196 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: NO PFDs

Looks like a typo. I think the third rule has something to do with 1 hour until hypothermia. Here is a different link.

https://csbc.ca/en/1-10-1-principle
Arcb is offline  
post #23 of 51 Old 12-22-2019
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Southern Colorado, sailing at Pueblo Rez
Posts: 54
Thanks: 10
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: NO PFDs

https://www.fishandboat.com/Boat/Boa...datoryPFD.aspx

" It is worth pointing out that some inflatable life jackets have a statement on the U.S. Coast Guard label that reads “DO NOT USE BELOW FREEZING”. The warning refers to the air temperature. Inflatable life jackets get their buoyancy from the pressure of the carbon dioxide gas (CO2) inside the life jacket’s bladder. As the temperature decreases, so does the CO2 pressure. Less CO2 pressure inside the life jacket’s bladder means less buoyancy. So if you are going to be out on a boat when the air temperature is below freezing (32 degrees F), then you should wear an inherently buoyant foam-filled life jacket that is U.S. Coast Guard approved.

When we winter sail here, I use my kayaking pfd. It's warmer, too.
chef2sail likes this.
22catcapri is online now  
 
post #24 of 51 Old 12-23-2019
Administrator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 8,884
Thanks: 43
Thanked 439 Times in 369 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: NO PFDs

Quote:
And BTW, I've read that inflatable PFDs don't in cold water. Haven't tested it myself, though.
National Center for Cold Water Safety - PFDs
With all due respect, this is grossly misleading. The article in question is talking about type III PFD's. Type III are not inflatable PFD's. Type III are recreational PFD's which typically only have 15.5 lbs or so of buouyancy. Inflatables are mostly Type V PFDs. While it varies with the design of the inflatable, most offer 20 lbs or so of buoyancy. The two hydrostatic, offshore inflatable, type V's that I use claim that they are produce 27 lbs of buoyancy and the literature says will turn the wearer face up.

Quote:
Blow up your inflatable dinghy in the early morning before the sun hits it. Check it at noon and it will be grossly over inflated, check it again in the evening and it will be under inflated. Gases expand as they are warmed and decrease as they are cooled. An inflatable vest may not inflate to rock hard when temps are low but it will still inflate. A little addition of air via the oral inflation tube(s) will do the final touch up, but the PFD's will inflate enough to float you even in cold conditions though maybe not in North Pole cold.
Quote:
" It is worth pointing out that some inflatable life jackets have a statement on the U.S. Coast Guard label that reads “DO NOT USE BELOW FREEZING”. The warning refers to the air temperature. Inflatable life jackets get their buoyancy from the pressure of the carbon dioxide gas (CO2) inside the life jacket’s bladder. As the temperature decreases, so does the CO2 pressure. Less CO2 pressure inside the life jacket’s bladder means less buoyancy."
Then there is the issue of cold vs warm air density. It is my understanding that the cartridge attached to each type V is sized to over-inflate the bladder in any air temperature and that there is a pressure relief valve that is part of the system that prevents a level of inflation that is likely to damage the bladder. The compressed gas gets very cold as it expands and enters the bladder and so the air temps, even freezing air temps are likely to be warmer than the expanded gasses in the bladder and not impact whether the bladder fully inflates.

More to the point, even though they span a nearly 25 year period from oldest to newest, and come from 3 different manufacturers and are a mix of hydrostatic and conventional, harness and non-harness, offshore and coastal, there is no warning on any of the five type V PFD's that I carry on my boat that says that any of those type V's would should not be used below freezing. I don't have any idea where that statement that some Type V's have a U.S. Coast Guard label that reads “DO NOT USE BELOW FREEZING” comes from but it does not appear to be close to universally accurate.

I may be a little prejudice on Type V's because I am a major proponent of wearing type V pdf's and have been for nearly 25 years. They are comparatively non-obtrusive even in a racing environment, and comfortable wear. As nearly non-swimmer, having taken an unexpected swim in a type V, in lots of clothing and carrying a bunch of gear, I was amazed how quickly it brought me the surface. That is in comparison to the time that was almost drowned in a type III PFD during a capsize in cold water. At best the quote in question should be at best seen as a warning to read the literature on any inflatable that you are buying or own before assuming that it will work below freezing.

I strongly believe that having a PFD that is comfortable to wear in all conditions such that people actually do wear them, potentially can save a lot of lives. In cold weather, an effective PFD (22 lbs or more of inflation and floating the wearer face up) is even more essential. Misleading posts potentially places people at unnecessary risk.

Respectfully,
Jeff


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay

Last edited by Jeff_H; 12-23-2019 at 11:25 AM.
Jeff_H is online now  
post #25 of 51 Old 12-23-2019
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 257
Thanks: 85
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: NO PFDs

A couple years ago on my launch day (last week of April) where I keep my boat in Sandusky Bay on Lake Erie, a fisherman in a jon boat was seen out in the bay, maybe a couple hundred yards. He was actually witnessed going into the water (about 10 feet deep in the bay), but his body was still not found for I think more than a week later. No PFD. Was a somber launch day.
bshock is online now  
post #26 of 51 Old 12-23-2019
Senior Member
 
pdqaltair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 3,706
Thanks: 4
Thanked 130 Times in 128 Posts
Rep Power: 12
 
Re: NO PFDs

The "below freezing" warning is posted many places.

However, I seriously doubt the gas temperature will be materially below freezing once you are in the water. The water temperature will govern.

My concern would be the stability of partially inflated bladders. Some are not well secured.

Honest, if I think there is ANY chance of falling into 32F water, I wear a dry suit. No problem.
Towguy and Arcb like this.

Writing full-time since 2014
Author--Rigging Modern Anchors

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Keeping a Cruising Boat for Peanuts"
"Faster Cruising for the Coastal Sailor"
"Singlehanded Sailing for the Coastal Sailor"
pdqaltair is online now  
post #27 of 51 Old 12-23-2019
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,577
Thanks: 139
Thanked 199 Times in 189 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: NO PFDs

Have cruised in cold waters. In such a situation wear an immersion suit. Not a Gumby but rather those that the CG, oil workers and other commercial workers wear. That allows use of your hands and wearing non skid dubarry boats or the like. They come with integrated harnesses. Believe the proper use of the harness is more important than anything else.
If I was racing or on a boat in such conditions that required much deck work would wear a totally waterproof sailing smock and pants with appropriate layers underneath and combo harness/pfd. Good setups like the ones from Musto are big bucks. The workers immersion suit with harness from Mustang is less than a third of the money. Easy decision. CG and othe local enforcement agencies seem to sell off their suits or there are overruns. In either case immersion suits are available at our local army/navy for a few hundred bucks. Think that’s the way to go. Think a personal AIS is a good idea as well as self rescues are unlikely in such conditions.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
post #28 of 51 Old 12-23-2019
Senior Member
 
Minnesail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 2,951
Thanks: 167
Thanked 119 Times in 115 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: NO PFDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
When sailing Lake Superior we used to say, somewhat morbidly, that all a lifejacket does is allow the CG to find the body.
We jokingly call them “corpse floats” instead of “life jackets”



Quote:
Originally Posted by 22catcapri View Post
And BTW, I've read that inflatable PFDs don't in cold water. Haven't tested it myself, though.
I tested mine at the end of September in Lake Superior and it worked fine.

We were testing recovery procedures, and for this test I wore boots, jeans, and a heavy cotton sweatshirt. I wouldn’t normally dress like that while sailing, but I wanted to make myself heavy for the recovery.

• When I jumped in it felt like it took my PFD forever to inflate. The video showed that it took about two seconds.

• The PFD provided a lot of buoyancy and definitely kept my head above water, but I felt a bit like a dog back from the vet in the cone of shame. The PFD held my head up so much it was hard to see and maneuver.

• With the cone of shame and the heavy clothes it was difficult to swim back to the boat. This was in calm water at anchor, and since it was a planned immersion I wasn’t panicking.

• By the time I got back to the boat and they threw me a line, my fingers had stiffened up enough that it was difficult to tie a bowline through the d-ring in my PFD. Another two or three minutes in the water and I don’t think I could have done it. Again, calm water and not panicking.

Our takeaway lessons were that an overboard in cold water can not do much to rescue themself. We decided a Lifesling would be the best way to lift a person out, even if they’re wearing a PFD with a harness.
BarryL, MikeOReilly and 22catcapri like this.

Catalina 22
on a starboard tack
Minnesail is offline  
post #29 of 51 Old 12-23-2019
Moderator
 
Arcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 3,949
Thanks: 214
Thanked 200 Times in 196 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: NO PFDs

Goretex dry suit is a great way to go if there is any risk of immersion in cold water. In recent years they have come way down in price and way up in comfort. I can wear mine for days without discomfort. Some people find the one pieces confining so there are two piece semi drys. I see them on sale for about $400.

Cheaper option, but not by much are floater suits. Not bad, but I was always soaked inside with sweat and the bulk restricts mobility a bit.

Personally like a high end foam paddle guide vest and find it as comfortable as an inflatable, but have used inflatables too. My foam vest is cut high enough I can wear a trap harness under it.

Last edited by Arcb; 12-23-2019 at 06:36 PM.
Arcb is offline  
post #30 of 51 Old 12-23-2019
Senior Member
 
pdqaltair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 3,706
Thanks: 4
Thanked 130 Times in 128 Posts
Rep Power: 12
 
Re: NO PFDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
...those that the CG, oil workers and other commercial workers wear. That allows use of your hands and wearing non skid dubarry boats or the like. They come with integrated harnesses...The workers immersion suit with harness from Mustang is less than a third of the money....
Link please. I've not seen anything like that, I'm guessing no one here has either. I've worked around rigs, and the ones we wore were >$1000.

https://www.machovec.com/catalog/ind...cial_suits.htm

Writing full-time since 2014
Author--Rigging Modern Anchors

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Keeping a Cruising Boat for Peanuts"
"Faster Cruising for the Coastal Sailor"
"Singlehanded Sailing for the Coastal Sailor"
pdqaltair is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome