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post #111 of 237 Old 06-14-2007
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Tommy and USCG...can you guys set up web cams?.....Please.

Also I think a safety/seamanship course should be a prerequisite for getting the vessel registered...no course cert...no registration. I don't like licensing or AIS for pleasure craft.
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post #112 of 237 Old 07-09-2007
 
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Post you do iz besz

Hi

Looks good! Very useful, good stuff. Good resources here. Thanks much!

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post #113 of 237 Old 07-09-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanConnett
If everyone else were licensed out on the water, maybe I could have some comfort in knowing that the boat that is approaching me from my port side knows that I have the right of way.
Sean,

There are very, very few instances where any boat has the "right of way" the correct term is "stand on". Perhaps we all need refresher courses.

Below is one of the ONLY areas where the USCG give an actual right of way!

(ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way
over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing.

Here's a little refresher MANY sailors DON'T grasp..Rule 11
Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another.
Rule 12
(a)When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:
    1. when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
    2. when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
    3. if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.
(b)For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.



One more that MOST boaters don't get! A boat involved in fishing such as a lobsterman or crab fisherman is the stand on in most instances other than a draft situation where the sail boat is restricted.

Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:
(a)A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
    1. a vessel not under command;
    2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
    3. a vessel engaged in fishing;
    4. a sailing vessel.
(b)A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
    1. a vessel not under command;
    2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
    3. a vessel engaged in fishing.
(c)A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of:
    1. a vessel not under command;
    2. a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.
(d)
    1. Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.
    2. A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition. [Intl]

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Last edited by Maine Sail; 07-09-2007 at 08:43 AM.
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post #114 of 237 Old 07-09-2007
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One thing Halekai probably should have mentioned or emphasized— A vessel engaged in fishing does not cover small pleasure craft with a few lines in the water, but only commercial boats that have nets or other gear in the water that restricts their ability to manuever.




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post #115 of 237 Old 07-09-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
One thing Halekai probably should have mentioned or emphasized— A vessel engaged in fishing does not cover small pleasure craft with a few lines in the water, but only commercial boats that have nets or other gear in the water that restricts their ability to manuever.
SD,

As far as I know the USCG makes no distinction between commercial and pleasure fishing. If you know where that is in the Col Regs please point it out to me. They just say "a vessel engaged in fishing" and not a "commercial vessel engaged in fishing". Here is their actual definition of a vessel engaged in fishing:


Quote from Col Regs:
"The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability."




So if a recreational boat is fishing with down riggers, or drifting & bottom fishing, with the motor idling, I'd say they still have the right of way regardless of the fact that they're recreational because down riggers or bottom lines certainly restrict maneuverability. They do make clear that trolling does not constitute "stand on" unless it would restrict the maneuverability of the vessel.

I know the regs were designed before en-masse Joe six pack bass fisherman were the rage however, there is maritime case precident to support recreational fisherman with
maneuverability restrictions and they have won many cases as the stand on vessel. Again the wording is clear and makes NO distinction so take all reasonable precautions to avoid a collision including giving way to Joe Six Pack....

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post #116 of 237 Old 07-09-2007
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Halekai-

The key is restricted in manueverability by their fishing gear. I don't know of any recreational fishing gear that would qualify as restricting a boat's manueverability. A large trawled net, or long-lines definitely do, but to use such gear in almost all the waters I can think of requires a commercial permit.

Down riggers, at least the recreational ones I'm familar with, do not affect the boat's ability to manuever. Either does having even a dozen lines on the bottom... since the amount of weight or mass of those lines is neglible compared to the power output of the engines on the boat. That can't be said for commercial fishing gear, such as long lines.

If you can point to recreational fishing gear that actually affects the manueverability of a large sport fishing boat, I'd be interested in seeing what you're talking about. If you can find the "precedents" saying that a recreational fishing boat has right of way due to restricted manueverability caused by the fishing gear deployed, please post them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by halekai36
SD,

As far as I know the USCG makes no distinction between commercial and pleasure fishing. If you know where that is in the Col Regs please point it out to me. They just say "a vessel engaged in fishing" and not a "commercial vessel engaged in fishing". Here is their actual definition of a vessel engaged in fishing:


Quote from Col Regs:
"The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability."




So if a recreational boat is fishing with down riggers, or drifting & bottom fishing, with the motor idling, I'd say they still have the right of way regardless of the fact that they're recreational because down riggers or bottom lines certainly restrict maneuverability. They do make clear that trolling does not constitute "stand on" unless it would restrict the maneuverability of the vessel.

I know the regs were designed before en-masse Joe six pack bass fisherman were the rage however, there is maritime case precident to support recreational fisherman with
maneuverability restrictions and they have won many cases as the stand on vessel. Again the wording is clear and makes NO distinction so take all reasonable precautions to avoid a collision including giving way to Joe Six Pack....



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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #117 of 237 Old 07-09-2007
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Well..

I guess your definition of restricted manuverability is different than the guy with the outboard motor that has twelve lines tangeled in his prop because you were bearing down on him demanding your "stand on status" when he tried to move only to foul his prop.

Again there is NO mention of commercial or recreational just the clause of restricted manuverability which leaves wide berth for what the definition of the word is is...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by halekai36
I guess your definition of restricted manuverability is different than the guy with the outboard motor that has twelve lines tangeled in his prop because you were bearing down on him demanding your "stand on status" when he tried to move only to foul his prop.

Again there is NO mention of commercial or recreational just the clause of restricted manuverability which leaves wide berth for what the definition of the word is is...
What, no citations of the precedent-setting cases you mentioned earlier??

If the guy with the outboard motor is fishing off the stern of his boat, and has twelve lines deployed and is dumb enough to put the boat into reverse, he deserves what he gets... going forward with such a boat is very, very, unlikely to cause anything to foul his outboard's prop. I've been out fishing on a boat with a dozen lines out... they don't have a problem moving unless the captain is an idiot...




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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #119 of 237 Old 07-09-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
Halekai-
If you can find the "precedents" saying that a recreational fishing boat has right of way due to restricted manueverability caused by the fishing gear deployed, please post them.
Conversly if you can show me where ANY boat has the "Right of way" I'd love to see it or where the Col Regs separate commercial from recreational.

I was told of this precedent by a maritime attorney who works here in Portland about a race in NJ some years back where two sailbots hit a small skiff that was bottom fishing with all lines in the water. The sailors claimed stand on & lost the case. Beyond that a good friend of mine was hit by a lobsterman, thinking he was stand on, and when he called a maritime lawyer about his 24k in damage he was told you have NO case you hit a vessel that was fishing.



As for "right of way" here's what the USCG has to say about it:

Quote from the USCG on "Right of Way":
"The International Navigation Rules do not confer upon any vessel the right of way however, certain vessels in sight of each other are responsible to keep out of the way of others. Usually, power-driven vessels are to keep out of the way of a vessel not under command or restricted in her ability to maneuver, sailing vessels or a vessel engaged in fishing. However, some exceptions exist when they themselves are not in command or restricted in her ability to maneuver (Rule 18), overtaking another vessel (Rule 13), are navigating a narrow channel or fairway (Rule 9), and other less explicit circumstances.

Navigation Rules should be regarded as a code of conduct and not a bill of rights. They do not bestow rights or privileges, but impose the duty to either give-way or stand-on, dependent on the circumstances. What is important is not so much what things are, i.e. sailing vessel, operational, etc., but how to avoid collisions, e.g. although under sail yet able to be propelled by machinery, obtaining an early warning by radar, etc. Understand, the Rules are in place to prevent collisions not to define nautical terms or to be subjected to strict interpretation."




This has been precisly my point the whole issue is to avoid collisions. Being a bone head, and assuming you have "right of way" when there is NO such thing, (unless you're in the great Lakes in a narrow chanel Rule #9) is what gets people hurt. I will continue to sail around vessels that are fishing and you can continue to insist you have the "right of way".....

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BTW, the lawyer was right, he didn't have a case.. but I doubt it was because he hit a recreational fishing vessel. It was more likely because he had a duty to avoid collision, regardless of who had the burdern of staying clear... ultimately, the responsiblity for avoiding collision is held by every one on the water...

I've never said that I have absolute right of way... The USCG defines a vessel engage in fishing per the COLREGS as:

Quote:
The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability.
Which you can find by clicking on the "engaged in fishing" link on this web page. It states pretty clearly that nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus that restrict maneuverabilty are required—but that any vessel with trolling lines or other apparatus that do not restrict maneuverability are not included. Down riggers and out riggers don't generally affect a boat's ability to move in any way.

By not knowing the rules, you can actually endanger people who do... and assuming that every fishing boat is "restricted" in its maneuverability is going to give you a rude suprise one of these days...




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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
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Last edited by sailingdog; 07-09-2007 at 05:30 PM.
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