BMW Oracle Wins Race 1 - if you care !!! - Page 5 - SailNet Community
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post #41 of 50 Old 02-17-2010
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
America's Cup can go this way (F1) and we will see the best sailors on the planet competing and the most technological boats, or will remain a millionaire's affair, strictly for very rich people.
I sort of thought that these were the best sailors on the planet (EB excluded ) and the most technological boats and it was a millionaire's (sorry, billionaires) affair.

Almost every contribution to this discussion so far has been that AC33 was not really a boat race - the above statement pretty much counters that.

Are you suggesting that future ACs should follow this format?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
By the way, have you noticed that Alinghi was faster on the second race? That's mainly because Berterelli, after doing that crap that led to the penalty (finaly) gave the wheel to Peyron
They were only momentarily faster - they got beaten by over 5 minutes, a lifetime in AC terms. Anyway, I reckon Bertarelli realised that he had no way of winning AC33 and if I was in his situation, I would also want to drive. Probably works out to a cost of about $1m a minute


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post #42 of 50 Old 02-17-2010
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Originally Posted by josrulz View Post
Have fun and take pics (...please)!
Back from Valencia, with some pics. Here they are:

The first one is taken at 10.15, 15 minutes after the hour set for the beginning of the race. As you can see there is almost nobody in the place where the race is going to be transmitted live on a giant screen. the contrast with the last edition is amazing. From the several km of waterfront that were occupied by the last edition, remains only activity on a single building.


The next two show the ambiance while the race was on. It was a lovely day, full of sun and Valencia is a big city but even so the Public is a small fraction of the one that was there on the last edition...and the enthusiasm.... is not present.



Finally, for you guys, the moment when BMW/Oracle crosses the line and wins the cup.


Regards

Paulo




Last edited by PCP; 02-17-2010 at 02:52 PM.
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post #43 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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firstly, I disagree with many of you about having more rules to make the race closer, that completely goes against the original intention of the America's Cup.

I do like the idea of going back to the country of origin rule, crew and manufacture from the country being represented. (yes I hold NZ and AU citizenship, but that's not why)

I don't know about these boat but I am guessing that like many of the bigger boats in the Sydney to Hobart they have generators to power hydrologic winches etc and the computer systems. I personally believe this is not sailing! you may as well hook the generator up to a propeller and have a motor boat race.

So I say, have as few rules as possible to give the designers freedom to innovate, have say a minimum LOA of 2ft and no max, crew from country represented, boat designed and built by country represented, make it more open than the original, so any kind of boat can enter, mono, cat, tri or even hydrofoil. have a limit of 1x 12v battery for on board power, no engines running (you could allow wind generators and solar panels (ok we could have limits on these, say maximum 1kw electrical of power generation from wind/solar, no fuels). Have no wind or wave limits (all weather conditions) or at worst have a 2kt minimum wind (becalmed boats drifting aren't that exciting) and have at least 1 race at night (to prevent it becoming a solar power race, this also introduces the requirement for seaworthy vessels with navigation lights).

Also to make things really interesting, one leg of the race must stay within 5nm of a shore line for the entire leg (this lets the spectators see something from the shore, it also adds the potential element of flukier winds with wind shifts and knocks/lifts, that will test the sailors, and brings in some navigation skills)

The limits on power generation and removal of power systems will put practical limits on the boats sizes, because at most you could only have an electric winch whose power consumption you have to replace/replenish from the elements (wind / sun). Again testing the designs, to have more sail area, you need better designs.

The only other area I thing you would consider limits is crew numbers, again have a wide range allowed to allow innovation, say a minimum of 2 and a max of 100.

With a race set up as I describe, you could potentially have a massively mismatched fleet i.e. a moth on foils racing a 30-40ft tri/cat and a 90-120ft mono and despite all three being radically different approaches still see close racing with each approach playing on their strengths and the others weaknesses.

I hope some can see the merit in my ideas.....

Dave.


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post #44 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lporcano View Post
The drivers in F1 are the equivalent of the crews in AC, who are also not rich. The primary sponsors in F1 are automobile manufacturers who put the teams together. I do not see Catalina or Hunter ponying up 50Mil to put together an AC campaign. There is little similarity between the AC and F1, and so any model that works for F1 is likely not going to work for the AC.

...

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Originally Posted by lporcano View Post
...The primary sponsors in F1 are automobile manufacturers who put the teams together. ...
Porcano, this is not true, not at least for most of the teams. I believe the only primary sponsors that are automobile brands are Ferrari, Renault and Toyota teams. All other teams (7) have engines provided by one of these brands (and expensively paid), but the main sponsor is the first name of each team.

Formula 1™ - The Official F1™ Website

This year champion is Brawn. The team was put together by Brawn, the car was designed by the Brawn team and they have a contract with Mercedes as an engine provider (they pay the engines).

But you forget the main thing: F1 Races are profitable. F1 generates its own money, through publicity, public on the racetrack and TV rights. F1 is supported by a huge public audience. The teams have a profit, not a deficit.

The Brawn team has won this year a lot of money. Besides the money from Sponsors, FIA pays a lot of money to all teams, based on results.

There are lots of racing teams at the doorstep of F1 waiting for a chance to go in (all the places are taken ).

Now about the AC, I would not like you to think that I am the only one that doesn't like the way things have turned, and I am not referring to the Oracle victory. Ellison also doesnt like it. He wants to change it:

The next Cup will be governed by an independent body, not dominated by any one team, including the defender. The Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron, the New York Yacht Club, the San Diego Yacht Club -- we want to get everyone involved and have a fair set of rules we can collectively agree on. We want to have an independent governing body, independent umpires and an independent jury. We want everybody to have a fair chance to win, with no politics involved.

The intent is for the next Americas Cup to look more like the version San Diego saw in 1992 and 1995, including conducting true defender trials as was standard practice for every trustee up until 2000.
We want a defender series -- and we want Dennis to get involved. And we think there could be as many as 16 teams.

That would be a sharp contrast to Americas Cup 33, which saw two huge multihulls who, as it turned out, had very little actual race preparation. The competition could have been all on, or it could have been a snoozer, and even the teams didn't quite know what to expect. In the end, it was a little of both.


America's Cup 34 - America's Cup Victory Tour in San Diego - from CupInfo

How can he like it? The Americas Cup was downgraded from a 230 million euro event to a 8 million euro event and from From being one of the four or five biggest sports events, its become frankly parochial.

America’s Cup Sinks as Bertarelli-Ellison Fight Sours Santander - Bloomberg.com

I like what Ellison wants for the future of AC but one thing is wanting, another is making it happen. For that he needs a lot of money and that can only come for Sponsoring and TV rights supported by a huge public interest. The AC, to be a major event, has to be economically viable.

When I was talking about F1 as a model I was talking about that: A Major world sport racing series, huge public interest and a Sports Event that is self supported by the money that generates, not to say, profitable.


Spithill seems to agree:
We really need to capture the attention of the average person. We need to make sailing one of the top sports in the world. We have to make people stop and take notice, make it exciting to watch.


America's Cup 34 - America's Cup Victory Tour in San Diego - from CupInfo

I really hope that would happen, but make it happen with the American public seems to me a lot more difficult than with the European Public, not only because there are some European countries where sailing races are already popular (France, England) but also because Americans are notoriously difficult to change their ways. For instance, the world has elected (by far) football as the worlds most popular sport, the Americans not only insist in calling it soccer, as it still remains a second rate sport in the US .

If the sports world public chose to elect sailing as a major world sport, will the American public follow?

Regards

Paulo



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post #45 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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Except that

Already there is talk that Oracle want the next cup raced in boats like their trimaran. I guess that has more to do with "What do we do with it now" than it does with "That's a good idea".

The reality is that few governements will spring money to fund and AC campaign and even the ones that do (New Zealand) won't stretch to $100m. There are seemingly only two billionaires that are ready to spring that kind of money.

The kind of race that you propose will see the biggest money win - end of story. Unless of course you are proposing just one limit - a money cap. But then we need to also limit this and if we do that we'll have to limit that and then we'll have to . . . . . . .

I suspect that a no-rules race will see just two competitors racing until they get bored and the AC will end up in a dusty basement. Besides, there is a plethora of sailboat races just like the one you propose already except they try to make competing fair. Imagine if the Sydney-Hobart ran without a corrected time finish? How many boats do you suspect will in the next one?

The multi-challenger, pre-AC regatta format that has successfully run for decades is the way it should continue IMHO


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post #46 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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Dave...
If you cut back on the rules, what are the lawyers going to do?

Paul
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post #47 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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If you guys are so set on the Cup coming to your own hometowns, why dont you get one of your own local multibillionaire-yachtsmen to successfully challenge the cup. Larrys our local guy. Hes done several interviews on the subject and they all lead to SF having first dibs. He isnt asking for $100M seed money, hes looking for the use of suitable land. And oddly enough, there are several options to choose from. Larry lives here in the burbs (Atherton). His company is here (Redwood City). And he has loads of experience racing here on the Bay from small boats to Sayonara and on to the America Cup Class boats (remember the Moet cup anyone?). So, you other guys, sit back and wait your turn cus SF has first dibs. And if the Cup Defense does wind up somewhere else, remember, your venue will never be better than Larrys second choice!
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post #48 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AE28 View Post
Dave...
If you cut back on the rules, what are the lawyers going to do?

Paul
The only thing they are any use for (shark bait)


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post #49 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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The only thing they are any use for (shark bait)
Sorry thats so off topic, stick to the main thread.

They can sort out the arguments about who ran a power generator.

My idea of keeping it open was just that. remember Hobie produced a foiling tri that was capable of +25 knots in the right winds, we are taking the same speeds with much smaller budget.

Money doesn't always win out, esp. when you take out the weather conditions. My step father often won over the line (and handicap) with his 18' trailer sailor against much more expensive 40' and 50' yachts.

Removing the weather limits means the boats have to be able to withstand and compete in 60+ knot winds but still be competitive at 2-3 knots, there's
an engineering challenge.

Removing the power, or limiting it to 1 standard 12v battery, keeps the size and costs down, but also bring it back to what it is supposed to be, a sailing race, not a motor race.

I'm not against the price limit idea, but that brings in the lawyers again because you'll have disputes about the way the $ etc are calculated to fit within this budget, and how do you manage the currency fluctuations in the calculations?

The America's cup has always been a line honours race, keep it that way. There are other handicap races, you could add a second trophy for handicap placement if you want, but I think that would detract from the spirit of the race's heritage.

I'm not saying have a complete anything goes, just don't put the restrictions on the boat but instead on things like how much power can be brought on board effectively limiting the $ spent on things like expensive hydraulic systems, in effect partially introducing a spend limit you wanted, without limiting sail and hull design development and keeping the race about the boat and sail technology.

BTW, I dont care where the race is held (as long as there is internet video coverage), perhaps that's a good suggestion, the races should be held in independent waters, so all the races between the challengers should be held at some midway point between each challengers home ports and then the final race at some mid point between the challengers and defenders home ports. And to make it fair both boats have to Sail (not motor) to the race fully rigged (take out airplanes and shipping costs), but this could have a side affect of keeping smaller boats out.

Dave.


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post #50 of 50 Old 02-26-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lporcano View Post
The bottom line is I don't see the Cup being held outside of the US as long as the US holds the Cup.
I think you are right and I truly hope America can find the structural conditions to bring back the AC to its former status: A major world sports event. That is what is really important.



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