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post #21 of 72 Old 02-06-2012
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I guess I'm really goin' to be in deep doo-doo next fall when I head for the Dry Tortugas and Bahamas in my 1973, production, Morgan 33 Out Island. Hell, my wife always said I wasn't all that intelligent cuz I switched from powerboats to sailing. I figured she can't be all that smart either cuz she married me. And, she fished with me in the canyons off Ocean City, Maryland and the Gulf Stream off Key West aboard a 21-foot Pro-Line powered with a single, 150-HP Yamaha outboard. Never really thought much about being in the stream in a powerboat, but I've never been there in a sailboat so maybe I have a lot more to learn about the stream. Should be fun, though.

Cheers,

Gary
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post #22 of 72 Old 02-06-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryL View Post

IMHO, once a boat is 10 or 15 or 20 years old the maintenance is WAY more important than the builder or design. I would rather sail a 20 year old hunter with new sails, rigging, and other critical items than a 20 year old Valiant or West Sail with all original gear (and they are out there).
Good thing it's after 10 PM, otherwise I might be tempted to waste an hour or more attempting to articulate why I disagree with such an assessment, bigtime... (grin)
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post #23 of 72 Old 02-06-2012
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I reckon there is no easy answer. So much in a used boat depends upon condition; and when going offshore, the boat is one of many other factors. Without circumnavigation experience:

- Many boats that are under 30' have sailed offshore. They may take a while though. Vigor's "20 small boats to take you anywhere" is a good start.

- Many production boats can be made more "bluewater ready". Of course, depends on your tolerance of risk; but in general, an average coastal cruiser needs a lot of work to get it ready (as a starter: Imagine you flip it over and give a good shaking. Cupboard open? Big mess? Not ready...)
I sail a Pearson 323; a very fine coastal cruiser, but I wouldn't want to circumnavigate in her. By happy coincidence another 323 is opposite me, which has been extensively modified...it is definitely more bluewater ready than I.

- As has been said, boats are a tradeoff. You can take a production boat, invest a lot of time and $$ into it, and make it more bluewater-ready; but why not get a boat designed for bluewater? I have seen a number of people take a boat designed for one purpose, and convert it onto another (e.g.a racer into a cruiser?!). Rarely works.
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post #24 of 72 Old 02-06-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
Sorry old dude, Bob didn't take the top job in the glass house until 1960, long after the edsel started sucking lemons.
Actually, it was '56 - just in time to screw up the Thunderbird for '58

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #25 of 72 Old 02-07-2012 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Guess it's an internet thing, to expect quick and simple answers to such a complex subject...

And, definitely an American thing, to place such an emphasis on brands...

If all you want is an answer, well - keep asking... However, if you want to gain some understanding of the subject at hand, educate yourself...

Here's a good place to start:

Far too many assumptions in this post to be useful. Not to mention insulting.

but thank for chiming in, sort of anyway.
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post #26 of 72 Old 02-07-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 123456Wannasail654321 View Post
Far too many assumptions in this post to be useful. Not to mention insulting.

but thank for chiming in, sort of anyway.
Well, you could always simply disregard the "assumptions", and consider my recommendation, anyway... Sorry, that's the best I can do in an effort to answer such an open-ended question - without wasting an hour or more of typing, which wouldn't even scratch the surface of the subject compared to the recommended volume, anyway... (grin)

OK, then - here's another pretty good place to start:

Mahina Expedition - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising
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post #27 of 72 Old 02-07-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night0wl View Post
IWhat I *supremely* fear is that people will see this as validation that any ol' production boat...regardless of things like age and condition...is capable of crossing Capes at any time. "See...Sequitor did it and its a Hunter, just like this 1975 Hunter 30 I'm thinking of getting for $2000 off of Craigslist."

Context is everything here...especially when you're talking about crossing Capes & Oceans. I have said that I would, myself, take any large new production boat near anywhere in the world. I would *NOT* take an old, ex-charter production boat across the Gulfstream to the Bahamas let alone Cape Horn. Not at least having done a lot of work to fix 'er up.
Since I'm probably partially responsible for kicking off this Huntersteria, let me chime in a bit here.

Your example above, through intended to be hyperbolic and humurous, is actually what underlies what I think is a lot of "bad", or at least outdated advice. In other words, it's the fear of encouraging someone to do something insanely stupid like the scenario you lay out above.

My take on this issue is that I believe the vast majority of people (95%?) are not as stupid or gullible as this thinking suggests. BUT, what happens is that the pendulum in this debate swings all the way to the other side - and becomes just as ridiculous as your Craigslist hyperbole above (ONLY Cabo Ricos, full keels, skeg hung rudders, real sea berths, etc.). Hunters become impotent coastal cruisers that should never be taken far from shore - and Catalinas, Benes, Jennes, etc., though slightly better received, are not far behind.

All I'm trying to point out is that that hyperbolic stance, though based on something eemingly good (protecting stupid people) does far more damage than good.

Sequitur proved two things:

1. Modern production boats - EVEN HUNTERS - can go anywhere.
2. It's the sailor, and his/her abilities, knowledge, and experience - that makes this possible. (Have you seen how conservatively - and intelligently - Michael sails?)

As for the 5% of stupid people, they're going to be stupid no matter what one says. I don't think that overly conservative and antiquated logic should be used to screw up the other 95% of the market.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-07-2012 at 10:53 AM.
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post #28 of 72 Old 02-07-2012
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Once again it seems we must point out that oceans have been crossed in small, open sailboats. That does not prove that small, open sailboats are good bluewater cruisers!

Given good preparation and good luck you can sail anywhere you want in any kind of boat you want. It is not a question of whether or not it is possible. IT IS! So one boat of one type doing something--anything!--does not prove that that boat is a good choice for anyone and everyone contemplating the same journey. In the end, the success or failure of any one journey is ALWAYS more about the skills of the captain and the crew than it is about the seaworthiness of whatever they may be sailing.

Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Yes, you can sail around the world in almost any boat. Big deal. The question is what boat choice can do it comfortably, given YOUR skills and YOUR preparation?

If you can handle a 49' Hunter under heavy weather conditions, then it's probably going to be a pretty reasonable boat for going almost anywhere. Some of the smaller and lighter Hunters are going to require a much more skillful crew to remain safe, and they are not going to be as comfortable (no matter how skilled the crew).

Anyone who tells you that you CAN'T sail a Hunter across oceans is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Likewise, anyone who tells you that a 25' Hunter is a perfect choice for anyone to sail anywhere is ALSO an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. There's a continuum here, and a lot of variables, and absolute answers on either side are simply idiotic.

Again, I don't understand why this seems to be so hard for so many people to understand.
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post #29 of 72 Old 02-07-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
1. Modern production boats - EVEN HUNTERS - can go anywhere.
2. It's the sailor, and his/her abilities, knowledge, and experience - that makes this possible. (Have you seen how conservatively - and intelligently - Michael sails?)

As for the 5% of stupid people, they're going to be stupid no matter what one says. I don't think that conservative logic should be used to screw up the other 95% of the market.
Absolutely. The only problem is that it seems the 5% are unduly represented here. They seem to ask about 75% of the "what boat should I buy?" questions, and post about 50% of the "I'm planning to leave on a circumnavigation" types of posts.
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post #30 of 72 Old 02-07-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Absolutely. The only problem is that it seems the 5% are unduly represented here. They seem to ask about 75% of the "what boat should I buy?" questions, and post about 50% of the "I'm planning to leave on a circumnavigation" types of posts.
You know, I think that's a real chump thing to say. There's a huge difference between stupid and newb. Newbs ask questions - stupid people go buy the boat and sail toward Capetown before ever asking a question. Surely you're intelligent enough to see that.

In any case, if you're so beyond basic questions, go sailing. No one's forcing you to answer them or give your opinion as to their IQ level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Why is that so hard for people to understand?

...

Again, I don't understand why this seems to be so hard for so many people to understand.
Simple. It's not the same person asking the question over and over again. That's what you get with a growing forum - and hopefully growing sport. New people come in. And they pretty much all have the same basic questions.

How many times do you get pissed at newbs you take out on your boat because you have to explain - every single time to every single newb - the whole heeling thing to them?

Why is it so hard for you to understand?

Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-07-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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