SailNet Community

SailNet Community (https://www.sailnet.com/forums/)
-   herSailNet (https://www.sailnet.com/forums/hersailnet/)
-   -   Is Sailing Sexist? (https://www.sailnet.com/forums/hersailnet/98579-sailing-sexist.html)

bljones 04-17-2013 12:07 AM

Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I just reviewed a book with a title that made me think- Joy Smith's "The Perfect First Mate- A Woman's Guide to Recreational Boating"

Dock Six Chronicles: Book Reviewsday Tuesday: Bad Title, Better Book

I thought the book had some great information, but the title kind of stuck in my craw: Why not title it "The Perfect Boat Owner"? I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?

jimgo 04-17-2013 09:22 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I guess it depends on what Ms. Smith was suggesting; if she was calling her husband/significant other the "Perfect First Mate" then maybe that title isn't as sexist as it sounds.

deniseO30 04-17-2013 09:32 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
It's a pretty awful title. Don't think I'd read it based on that alone. Thank God the Stepford Wives aren't into sailing! lmao http://stepfordwives.org/images/2010...ves_banner.jpg

Oh.. and yes.. the sport is very sexist. Look around next time you enter a marina. Look on the Big money racing boats. Sure, a few women have excelled but it's still a boys club. Some of you may remember my thread that Women are almost never called captain. It was a fun and enlightening discussionhttps://www.sailnet.com/forums/hersai...d-captain.html...

Melrna 04-17-2013 09:36 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I would have to say "yes". For a majority of boat owners out there it is. As discussed to ad-nausea on most boats there are pink and blue duties. Than there are boats like mine where I am the Captain. There are strong women out there, I believe we are just a small minority.
To qualify this we need to look at the boating community as whole. There are day sailors, serious sailors ( racers and boaters who use there boats a lot), liveaboards, coastal cruisers and world voyagers to name a few. The last 3 is where I see most of the strong women who can do both duties; pink/blue.
It is also can be broken down into generation classes as well. Baby boomers and earlier tend to hold more traditional roles of gender while young generation in particular the X,Y,Z (DINKS, Dual income no kids) gang women tend to cross gender roles more readily.
There can be a whole book or three on gender class roles and the changes over the last 100 years.
In sports Title X ruling for equal access and money in school sports help us women getting into sports where they boys club has keep us out for centuries. Since sailing is a sport, we have seen more and more women compete in world sailing events. The next VOR will have an all women's team for example. In the coming decades I believe we will see more women on equal footing with the men in this great sport. Than this debate might be dead.

fryewe 04-17-2013 01:03 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1017475)
I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?

bl: Pretty sexist of you to think that only the ladies can have an opinion on whether something is sexist or not. What's up with that? :rolleyes:

Ajax_MD 04-17-2013 01:07 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
*Sigh*

jameswilson29 04-17-2013 01:15 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Men and women have genetically-determined differences (pretty obvious) based on evolutionary roles, even in the way their brains work.

On average, men have greater natural mechanical and spatial relations ability than women do. In the prehistoric hunter-gatherer phase of evolution, men were programmed to be the hunters and women were programmed to be the gatherers. Hunting requires different skills from gathering, and vice versa.

Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science.

Many believe that natural abilities create needs to express those abilities.

Very few occupations today satisfy those needs resulting from our evolutionary abilities; most people in the workforce no longer use their hands to create things.

Consequently, men gravitate toward activities, hobbies and sports involving construction, the mechanics of how things work, and moving through three dimensional space, such as sailing. Sailing satisfies basic needs and challenges basic abilities that proportionately more men than women possess. Therefore more men are interested in and involved in sailing.

The same is true for automobile racing and a number of other pastimes.

Sorry, that is the way the world is. You are only surprised by this if you choose to believe the nonsense that everyone is the same at birth and its only environment and conditioning that determine who we become.

Tim R. 04-17-2013 01:29 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I would not consider sailing sexist as I do not feel women are purposely excluded from sailing.

Take two people. One man and one woman. Both have the exact same desire to sail. I feel both have the exact same opportunity to sail. There are no obvious exclusions for women.

Also consider the fact that men and women compete in regattas on equal terms. How many sports do that?

Minnesail 04-17-2013 02:00 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I don't think sailing is sexist, but it sure sounds like that book is! When was it written, 1955?

Siamese 04-17-2013 02:03 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Sailing isn't sexist, but don't pretend that the sexes aren't different.

The great majority of sailboats in a given marina are owned by men, or if they're owned by a couple (hetero), then the man is the one who decided to get the boat.

If the man gets hit by a bus, the boat will be sold. Most likely to another man.

Women aren't excluded from sailing, but the female sailboat owner is still a rarity.

Donna_F 04-17-2013 02:30 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siamese (Post 1017668)
Sailing isn't sexist, but don't pretend that the sexes aren't different.

The great majority of sailboats in a given marina are owned by men, or if they're owned by a couple (hetero), then the man is the one who decided to get the boat.

If the man gets hit by a bus, the boat will be sold. Most likely to another man.

Women aren't excluded from sailing, but the female sailboat owner is still a rarity.

Addressing only the ownership issue, I agree sorta as it pertains to the outside world. You might find that on sailing forums there is a smaller gap between the number of women members who own boats singly and women members who have joint ownership and are active participants in maintenance and sailing.

I'll stick my hand up as buying my first boat on my own and being the one to initiate buying the second boat after I found a SO. I gave away my first boat to a woman who happened to take my sailing class.

Minnewaska 04-17-2013 06:16 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Can anyone think of a marina that won't allow a women to rent a slip or a broker than won't sell a woman a boat? No barrier to entry that I can think of.

People are sexist. Sailing is not.

outbound 04-17-2013 06:39 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
4 Attachment(s)
on my prior boats
wife co signed the loan or the vessel was documented to both of us.
?who owns the boat. Know what a lawyer would say.
never bought a boat without major input from admiral.
I won't live on my boat- we will
I won't cruise to various places- we will.
When I need to sleep- she will run the boat. When she sleeps I will.

Don't think there are sexist activities- think there are sexist people.

P.S.- Best blue water sailor I ever knew was a petit librianian ( yup truly). Meet her when I was ~30 and she was in her 60s ( my guess). Learned more about sail shape and how to run a boat from her then from just about anyone else I've known. Given her body habitus she taught me the easy way to do everything which usually turns out to be the right way.

HeartsContent 04-17-2013 06:47 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Hit the nail on the head! :)

The reality? Women "generally" have no interest there's no conspiracy and there's nothing wrong with it.

Anyway, what's wrong with a boat bunny! :)

Siamese 04-17-2013 08:07 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
It's a known fact that women are bad luck on a boat. Simple caution could look like sexism.

miatapaul 04-17-2013 08:07 PM

Well I am disappointed on my phone I thought this was "is sailing sexy."

I will say if this forum's conservative bend is any indication it might be. There is also the fact that there cannot be true equality in real offshore sailing. Some one has to be in charge, in emergency situations decisions are made and followed. This is important to safety of all involved. To me it would not matter who is making the decisions man or woman. For me I would not have issues with taking orders from a female captain. But I know for some it would be an issue. I would love to find a woman to sail with.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

CalebD 04-17-2013 09:55 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
As for the gender specific chores, I don't buy it.
In the old British navy the boats were mostly inhabited by men, but not necessarily exclusively. Men usually did all of the so called "pink" chores: cooking, cleaning, sewing as well as the piloting, sail trim and navigating chores. The sailmaker was an important member of the crew in those days.
I like to cook and I am re-learning how to sew by hand while sewing up some tears in our 10 year old genoa. I enjoy acting as steward on board my boat when we have company.
If I can do both the "pink" and "blue" jobs then so can a woman. Think of solo circumnavigator donna Lange among others.
Sailing isn't sexist; our culture is.

mr_f 04-17-2013 11:26 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
My wife and I are relatively new to cruising size boats. She is a more competent sailor than I am, having grown up around boats, and probably should take the "captain" role. She is also smarter than I am and realized that if she puts me in charge during high visibility situations (like docking), people will assume I am the "captain" and it is me that gets to look like an idiot when things go wrong.

CalebD 04-18-2013 12:41 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_f (Post 1017873)
My wife and I are relatively new to cruising size boats. She is a more competent sailor than I am, having grown up around boats, and probably should take the "captain" role. She is also smarter than I am and realized that if she puts me in charge during high visibility situations (like docking), people will assume I am the "captain" and it is me that gets to look like an idiot when things go wrong.

Now there is one smart gal!

Jeff_H 04-18-2013 08:38 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Somewhat relevant to the title of this thread was an article in "Sailing" magazine. To me, I do not see sailing as inherently sexist. That said, many boats are set up with winch and line loadings that are designed around what an average fit man can routinely manage. My wife who is in good physical shape complains that these loads are bigger than she can handle easily. While there are many un-fit men out there, and many very fit woman, perhaps it is time for designers to increase the mechanical advantage so that a larger cohort of the population can easily manage the loads.

Anyway, below is the article on recent growth in sailing coming in the from women taking up the sport....

GROWTH: The secret is out, and she’s female

You sail like a mom: It’s a compliment, not a put-down



While sailing industry types scratch their heads trying to find the right formula to increase the number of kids in sailing programs, and sailing clubs and racing associations nationwide worry about declining memberships, sailing is shifting and growing under their feet.

Promoters repackage races to appeal to shoreside fans of testosterone-loaded extreme sports, selling sponsorships to brands which, in turn, hope fans will buy shirts or drinks, and sailboat builders seek designs hoping for mass appeal or some new “breakthrough” formula, all while sailing is being revolutionized from the inside out.

Sailing is becoming the activity of adult women.

Don’t believe it? Quick, say the last names of Ellen, Dawn, Betsy and Anna. You got them all in a few seconds right? Now try to do that quickly with the names of four guys who sail.

But it’s much more than a few popular female sailing athletes. This revolution isn’t being led by pros or celebrities, but by grassroots changes and on all new terms.

Here’s some evidence: Facebook analytics reports that among 1.1 million Americans who express an interest in sailing, women account for 51%, and 88% of them are over 25 years old. But they’re not just fans. Women under 24 and over 35 share their own sailing experiences on Facebook almost twice as often as men.

Consider that only 20 years ago, men outnumbered women in sailing 7-to-1.

You might see it in your town. What sailing center’s teaching staff isn’t dominated by strong, athletic, articulate and confident female sailing instructors? What collegiate sailing team doesn’t have at least as many women as men? What yacht club doesn’t like to boast about its first female commodore? And what regatta doesn’t overplay its all-female entries?

At the 2012 Soling Worlds for example, someone stood up at the opening ceremony to announce that boat No. 601, skippered by Whitney Kent and crewed by Cate Muller and Ashley Henderson, was the first all-female team ever in a Soling World Championship, and everyone loudly cheered and applauded, as if it was something strange and new. Sure, Soling fleet demographics lean to older guys who still seem focused on the Olympic trials of the 1970s, so they may not have noticed what has been happening recently in other fleets. The No. 601 team wasn’t there as a novelty or to be called out as tokens. Between them, the three women have decades of sailing experience and stellar records, racing and winning in one-design and handicapped events all over the country. They had trained for the event all summer because it happened to be coming to their hometown, and sailed respectably against tough competition.

In many cities near water in the U.S., women are organizing all-women teams and events. These events often grow organically out of a small network of veteran sailors who cobble together some used boats and recruit and help train newcomers until they’ve built a decent-sized fleet. In my town, summer Monday nights (the night the women sail) are the busiest nights on the bay. You might also notice that unlike classically organized sailing events, those for women organized by women don’t have a “yachty,” “club” or an “exclusive” feel. They don’t originate behind a closed gate or in the haze of cigar smoke at a bar. Instead, friends call friends and they go sailing. Everyone, regardless of skill, affiliation, age or experience is welcome, except, of course, for the men.

And here’s something new and different: unlike most adult men in sailing who will tell you that they’ve sailed forever, many women are entering the sport as adults. Often it happens while seeking social connections before or after marriage or kids. A woman will move to a new city to take a job, and the local sailing center looks attractive as a place to meet people and relax in the evenings. Friendships are sparked and a lifelong sailing adventure begins.

Women who get a taste for sailing in women-only events or in community programs often join teams that also include men and when they do, they’re just as good as the men, sometimes better. In my experience, among my crewmates, the women have the deepest commitment, train the hardest and can be the most motivated and motivational skippers.

Sailing belies gender. Women have everything it takes—strength, quickness, smarts and creativity—to sail at any level, from boat rides to blue water, from match racing to solo around-the-world adventures, from dinghies to tall ships.
But there is a more important aspect to this trend. When women who sail also happen to be moms, as they often are or will be, sailing becomes the activity of their families too.

When a sailing mom’s kids are very young, they get an inspiring early taste. They learn to be on and around boats and sailors, to wear life jackets, to touch water, and to be safe. Then, when her kids are old enough to be on a sailing team, the family becomes the team. Mom doesn’t sit in the bleachers at a soccer field, she trims the kite, steers the boat or calls tactics.

So I propose that the most important person on any sailing boat is the mom. Think about it this way: When a mom sails with her kids (instead of driving them to soccer) she’s doing something deemed suited only to men just a few years ago, and she is not doing the things thought to be the status quo for moms today. She’s a renegade. An innovator. A leader.

And that, all you industry types, club and racing association managers, boat makers and sponsors, is how you get kids into sailing.

outbound 04-18-2013 09:08 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
4 Attachment(s)
beautifully said jeff and true. now if we can just get production cruising boats to more completely reflect that reality I could have saved a ton of money.

Minnewaska 04-18-2013 09:22 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Boats can be set up to require less strength, but it will cost $$ to do so. Furlers, larger winches or even *gasp* electric!

Perhaps we can remind all the purists that routinely dump on these mechanical devices that they are all sexist. Some argue that you should always be able to manually override. While I agree that one should at least know how to sail without these advantages, there are plenty of large boats where no amount of crew could overcome the loads, without electric or hydraulic advantage. Why should this be different for those with lesser strength on recreational boats.

MrPelicano 04-18-2013 09:24 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Sailing isn't inherently sexist, but men are and the sailing community is made up predominantly of men. Admittedly, more women are coming into the sport, and, at least in the racing sector, men are increasingly amenable to sailing with and against women. The introduction of the mixed-crew Nacra 17 catamaran into Olympic sailing is also a sign of progress. And though in the Laser class the Standard fleet is overwhelmingly male, there's a very good gender mix in Radials at the Junior level (and in my own fleet at the Masters level).

Nevertheless, the sailing world does remain testosterone-drenched in many respects, as a quick visit over to Sailing Anarchy forums will reveal. Plenty of unabashed sexism (and homophobia) on display in any given thread, and seldom called out by anyone who should know better. Pretty much what one would expect from men who prefer spending their free time offshore in the company of other men, doing manly things, far from the company of wives and girlfriends.

Minnewaska 04-18-2013 09:27 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrPelicano (Post 1017995)
Sailing isn't inherently sexist, but men are.....

In evidence above, by some of our female colleagues comments, men have not cornered the market on sexism.

MrPelicano 04-18-2013 11:50 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 1018000)
In evidence above, by some of our female colleagues comments, men have not cornered the market on sexism.

And what would that "evidence above" consist of, pray tell? Don't quite know what you mean by "cornered the market" but I believe most folks would agree that men dominate that market, and this manifests itself in many, many ways. Too many, in fact, to itemize in this post.

By the way, it's "Mr" Pelicano. :cool:

Minnewaska 04-18-2013 04:51 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrPelicano (Post 1018075)
And what would that "evidence above" consist of, pray tell? Don't quite know what you mean by "cornered the market" but I believe most folks would agree that men dominate that market, and this manifests itself in many, many ways. Too many, in fact, to itemize in this post.

By the way, it's "Mr" Pelicano. :cool:

"Pray Tell", very Connecticut. :)

I have to retract my comment, as I looked above and must recall comments made in another thread. There are a couple going right now. Many women are not shy about posting critical comments about men. Although, it usually a seagull attack. They swoop in, crap all over the place, then fly away never to be seen again. In fact, I bet I could find more male bashing in "her-sailnet" than I would female bashing in all the other forums combined. If there was a "his-sailnet" we would probably catch up.

MrPelicano 04-19-2013 07:57 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 1018200)
"Pray Tell", very Connecticut. :)

I have to retract my comment, as I looked above and must recall comments made in another thread. There are a couple going right now. Many women are not shy about posting critical comments about men. Although, it usually a seagull attack. They swoop in, crap all over the place, then fly away never to be seen again. In fact, I bet I could find more male bashing in "her-sailnet" than I would female bashing in all the other forums combined. If there was a "his-sailnet" we would probably catch up.

I'm from California and haven't heard the "pray tell" expression used in the two years I've been in CT. Maybe its sumbliminal.

Sexism isn't about "bashing" except in its cruder forms, just like racism isn't simply about trashing people not like oneself. And you can trash / bash people in ways that don't fall into the realm of either -ism.

Where one crosses the line is when one makes sweeping generalizations about other groups - positive or negative - or when one creates or perpetuates an environment where members of those other groups don't feel safe or welcome. What started this thread was the observation that the title of a particular book implied that a woman's role on a boat is predominantly supportive - i.e., that skippers are men and first mates are women. And the question was: Is the title sexist? The thread then veered (or backed) into the larger question of whether sailing, itself, is a sexist environment. My position is "No" to the first question and "Yes" to the second.

But sailing is sexist to the extent that it reflects the larger society in which it takes place, where women continue to be economically disadvantaged, compared to men, and are disproportionately responsible for the kinds of tasks - e.g., child raising, housekeeping, etc. - that present obstacles to sailing, in general, and boat ownership in particular.

Beyond that, in the racing community with which I'm intimately familiar, women tend to occupy their traditional "roles" of wives/girlfriends of men who go out and commune with one another on the water. The more serious the racing program, the less likely you are to find women on the boat.

However, let me say that the advent of sport boats like the Melges 24, Melges 20, J-70, Open 6.50, etc., has opened the door to more women at every level, for a variety of reasons, and this is a good thing. At the same time, when I raced in the Melges 24 circus for several years, one could hear no shortage of disparaging / crude remarks from men about the top woman skipper on that circuit - i.e., it was okay to have women on the 24 in "supporting" roles (to help make weight targets), but not so okay (with some) to have them in leadership roles.

And, at the risk of appearing ungenerous, your own remark comparing women's infrequent critiques of men to seagull attacks, strikes me as rather problematic, along the lines I've noted above.

In closing, I'm stepping onto a new boat for AYC Spring Series and I don't think there are any women on the boat. And there weren't any women on the last big boat I crewed, on which the conversation was frequently crude when the topic of women (or gays or minorities) came up. Contrast this to the Laser fleet I sail in, where women (and juniors) are well-represented.

Minnewaska 04-19-2013 08:54 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Agreed, not all sexism is bashing. However, all gender bashing is sexism and it is rampant on her-sailnet.

I stand by the seagull analogy, because most of the bashing is done by posters that don't stick around long. I believe that is in part because most of the consistent female posters, such as DR and Denise30 don't take the bait, although, can rightly dish it out when the guys cross the line.

Personally, I reject the simplistic conclusion that women are economically disadvantaged, etc. That's just too easy to say and hard to correlate to the outcome. As I think about every person I know, both male and female, more males have a passion for the sport than female. It has nothing to do with roles or when they started sailing or money. There are all kinds in both genders, but I can count 1 passionate female sailor for 10 males. I know many other female sailors who enjoy it and prefer to take the lesser role, as they don't have any desire to become a student of the sport. No one is stopping them. My wife included. I would prefer she did, but she only wants to know enough to get by and relax.

Is there a passionate female sailor that is blocked? I'm sure there is. I'm sure there are males too. I would even stipulate that there may be more blocked females than males, but we don't know it to be true. In the end, however, I do think more males choose the sport than female and it isn't going to be gender neutral as a result.

p.s. sorry about the CT swat, it was intended to be kidding. I certainly realize by now that the smiley doesn't always communicate well.

Minnewaska 04-19-2013 09:02 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Here's the most recent post that I read in another active thread that I incorrectly attributed to this one. I've omitted the poster, as I really don't intend to start a sword fight. I'm just trying to show what I'm referring to. Have a male post something like this and it would start a war.

Quote:

Right on sailor wench, screw those stupid men, they are so insecure and I really could care less about what they have to say or whine about! I go my own way alone without the BS they put forth!...........

Sal Paradise 04-19-2013 09:04 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Thanks Brian,

At the very least you opened my eyes to think about some things. Your Op might be deliberately vague, as you asked about "this lifestyle". I'm not that familiar with your lifestyle. maybe I'll read your blog some more.

As for my own lifestyle - my first thought is I'd kill to be the first mate and have my wife be captain. That's probably not going to happen. After 20 years of marriage I love her dearly but some fantasies are just not going to happen in this lifetime, for either of us. I don't think she is going to go out and buy a 40' sailboat and teach me how to help her sail it to Grenada, although I imagine I would really like that. :-) I don't want to pursue some sexist behavior that makes my wife feel second rate, but I really just consider sailing itself to be an innocent thing, a positive thing, a worthwhile thing.


One time she took the boat out herself with one of our boys and after spending the better part of an hour stalling the boat out and going backwards (and laughing hysterically) she came to admit that she really isn't the expert sailer she once claimed to be. At age 47, I also am at that age where I know less than I did when I was 20. If you are my age, you know what I mean. Life teaches you to be humble. But something inside me drove me to spend days and years learning how to sail better and better and for her that same urge hasn't really happened yet.

All that said, I know my wife gets scared and frustrated sometimes aboard and anything I can learn that would help me to help her enjoy it more and be more knowledgable is very helpful. We are lucky in that our whole family loves sailing. After all these years she and I really are best friends and more. Who wouldn't want their BFF to enjoy and learn all about sailing? I think I might take a look at that book.

nolatom 04-19-2013 11:12 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Not sexist. Racing is one of those sports where women regularly beat men, at least in boats requiring maximum brains and medium or less brawn. Sprinkle of few teams of the best of both genders into, say, Shieldses on a nice day, and see what happens.

Cruising, I suppose, since it required boat ownership et al, may have favored men since they were historically the ones more able to afford the money and time than women. The commercial waterfront has been mostly male since forever, the recreational waterfront less so. But that's much more about "traditional" gender roles than about sailing.

Women now have almost four decades' experience in the Naval, Coast Guard, and Merchant Marine academies too, and now occupy captain's quarters on more than a few vessels.

Some of this may take more time, but racing I think is almost at gender-neutrality, and could get there soon if designers want to reduce a bit of the upper-body strength and crew weight/leverage numbers on some of the winch-farm racers or screaming dinghies..

jameswilson29 04-19-2013 11:36 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nolatom (Post 1018548)
Women now have almost four decades' experience... and now occupy captain's quarters on more than a few vessels..

Well, I suppose they could be there for any number of reasons...:rolleyes:

PCP 04-19-2013 07:23 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
No I don't think sailing is sexist but I love the sexist comment of the guy that comments the book:

"If you've just bought a boat or are considering a boat purchase, this is a good place for new boaters of both sexes to start.

Just get past the cover."


http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps1ffa35aa.jpg




johnnyandjebus 04-19-2013 07:51 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I have no idea if sailing is sexist, no - I really do, it is not. As all ready mentioned, people are sexist not activities. With that said my berth, in my marina, gives a excellent view of the gas dock. I have seen plenty of men guiding their boats into the dock screaming out orders and generally acting like a horse's [email protected], aggressive, frustrated, demanding etc. In most of these cases the docking doesn't end well. I have yet to see a boat enter the gas dock under less than full control when skippered by a woman. Maybe it is because the male, first mate, has learned his place, not sure.
On a completely different note; I spent last summer and this spring over-hauling my boat, blisters/new barrier coat, deck-rot/re-painting etc. The local boat fibreglass repair business has a younger female on staff, who really knows her stuff. I have had the opportunity to chat her up given the amount of time she spends at the marina. I have come to look foreword to her advice from a pro to a novice, that I am. She has plenty of stories about customers who treat her like the office secretary, not the technical on-staff expert that she is. Both male and female customers hold that view point of her. Get over it already, is all I can say...

John

sparrow16 04-25-2013 02:24 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Sigh.

At the risk of coming off as confrontational I must comment on your post.

To start with, I don't think you are being mean-spirited and I'm guessing you really must think this to be true. However, what I ask is that you please do not fall into the trap in thinking that just because things have been a certain way in the past that it will always be that way in the future or that the explanations given in the past are still true or automatically valid for all time.

For myself, I have a Ph.D. in physics and know many women who have similar professional abilities (mathematics, spatial reasoning, science, engineering). I also know many who have been actively discouraged from similar pursuits by men (and women) because it was not deemed "appropriate" for a girl/woman.

As for sailing I have observed many women who sail with men who are in charge. Then there are those women who I suspect let the men take charge because of old habits, social pressures and cultural norms they have internalized, not because they cannot do it. I wonder how many men do not let their wives be in charge because they fear that their male buddies would make fun of them?

Christine


Quote:

Originally Posted by jameswilson29 (Post 1017641)
Men and women have genetically-determined differences (pretty obvious) based on evolutionary roles, even in the way their brains work.

On average, men have greater natural mechanical and spatial relations ability than women do. In the prehistoric hunter-gatherer phase of evolution, men were programmed to be the hunters and women were programmed to be the gatherers. Hunting requires different skills from gathering, and vice versa.

Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science.

Many believe that natural abilities create needs to express those abilities.

Very few occupations today satisfy those needs resulting from our evolutionary abilities; most people in the workforce no longer use their hands to create things.

Consequently, men gravitate toward activities, hobbies and sports involving construction, the mechanics of how things work, and moving through three dimensional space, such as sailing. Sailing satisfies basic needs and challenges basic abilities that proportionately more men than women possess. Therefore more men are interested in and involved in sailing.

The same is true for automobile racing and a number of other pastimes.

Sorry, that is the way the world is. You are only surprised by this if you choose to believe the nonsense that everyone is the same at birth and its only environment and conditioning that determine who we become.


wind_magic 04-25-2013 04:12 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Melrna (Post 1017541)
As discussed to ad-nausea on most boats there are pink and blue duties.

As much as I would like to think this isn't in our DNA ...

A local Subway sandwich shop just hired a bunch of new young people for the spring/summer season and I overheard two conversations there about work assignments. It only took a week before the young men were washing dishes, cleaning bathrooms, and taking trash out and the young women were working the cash registers and interacting with customers. Does it have to be that way ? I'd like to believe it doesn't, but I'm not so sure.

jameswilson29 04-25-2013 08:47 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparrow16 (Post 1021142)
Sigh.

At the risk of coming off as confrontational I must comment on your post.

To start with, I don't think you are being mean-spirited and I'm guessing you really must think this to be true.

This has been repeatedly proven by science. If you doubt it, read this book, which summarizes the science behind these differences: "Taking Sex Differences Seriously" by Steven Rhoads: [QUOTE=sparrow16;1021142]

As much as you do not want to believe it, hormones and chemicals determined by genetics can alter behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparrow16 (Post 1021142)
. I also know many who have been actively discouraged from similar pursuits by men (and women) because it was not deemed "appropriate" for a girl/woman.

You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.


Quote:

Originally Posted by sparrow16 (Post 1021142)
As for sailing I have observed many women who sail with men who are in charge. Then there are those women who I suspect let the men take charge because of old habits, social pressures and cultural norms they have internalized, not because they cannot do it.
Christine

You will never get what you want out of life if you are passive and allow others to determine your destiny.

Take charge of your life, Christine, and stop waiting for the approval of others! You can do it!:laugher

Sal Paradise 04-25-2013 07:14 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
You can't make the point that the sailing world isn't sexist by ranting at and lecturing women sailors. Almost as funny as lecturing a PhD about science.

sparrow16 04-26-2013 11:50 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
[quote=jameswilson29;1021188]This has been repeatedly proven by science. If you doubt it, read this book, which summarizes the science behind these differences: "Taking Sex Differences Seriously" by Steven Rhoads:
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparrow16 (Post 1021142)

As much as you do not want to believe it, hormones and chemicals determined by genetics can alter behavior.

You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.

You will never get what you want out of life if you are passive and allow others to determine your destiny.

Take charge of your life, Christine, and stop waiting for the approval of others! You can do it!:laugher

Note: This post not so much for James' benefit, he seems convinced of his argument (LOL), but rather for all of the other women and men out there who do not think biology is the only factor that determines our fates:

James,

I'm not waiting for your approval, as I indicated before, I own my own sailboat and I have my Ph.D. in physics so I think I'm doing fine being my own woman.

I speak from experience and from talking with other women. There are differences in the sexes but the social pressures to which women are subjected along with the expectations made of them from them from the day they are born are also very real and cannot be dismissed as unimportant. This is the flaw in your argument; you attribute all the differences to biology (i.e. nature) and ignore nurture.

The combined effects of both nature and nurture applies to men too but the difference is that women are generally encouraged to not be as extroverted as men. These social pressures skew the behavior and expectations of both men and women. Attributing all differences to biology is sexist.

Now, perhaps if we were to remove the effect of the negative social pressures women (and men) have endured we might still find more men in sailing and owning a sailboat. I would contend that this difference would be less than it is now. Fortunately, things seem to be changing for the better with more women sailing. To say it is all to do with biology is wrong.

With that I'm finished with this.

Fair Winds to All (and James too! :) )

Christine

northoceanbeach 04-27-2013 03:25 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jameswilson29 (Post 1021188)


You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.

I agree with James. I am a male, I am a sailor. No one got me into sailing, no one took me out as a kid, bought me my first boat, gave me lessons. I choose to do it, actually, it can be hard. I think most people don't realize how important it is to me, but it is, and I am working hard to make it my reality.

IMO, an American woman could do the same, and I think in some ways it might be easier. More people might be willing to help, to take her out sailing. Not that people haven't been more than helpful and friendly to me, but I'm sure if I was a woman I could do the same.

I see some female sailors, but the numbers aren't close. Just not as many with the drive, and I believe that it is in our DNA, something in men that makes them driven to explore, where women are more likely to "nest".

The book serves a purpose. There are wives and girlfriends going along, with less knowledge. If and when I take a woman out on my boat, I will have to teach her to sail, I have done it before and I will do it again. It's just the way it is, they're just not out there pushing me further, teaching me to be better. How many woman were taught by a man? 90%? Maybe higher. So the book is to help the female first mate.

outbound 04-27-2013 06:40 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
4 Attachment(s)
speaking as a neuroscientist in general there are structural differences in the brains of different sexes. Even when learning neuropathology 30+ yrs ago we were taught how to look at a brain and with fair accuracy determine sex. mechanisms of sensory perception and cognitive processing vary with sex. however, in gerenal there is more variation between individuals of a given sex than the different sexes when looking a a particular trait. whereas one can make statements for a population they may not apply to an individual. Lies,lies and stastistics.
personally after years of sailing with gung ho racers I learned more about sail shape,reading weather and how my diesel ran from a 70y.o. little town librianian with perfectly coiffed hair and perfect nails. She also never called me stupid which was a pleasant change.

Minnewaska 04-27-2013 07:52 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
You mean to say we haven't solved the debate over nature vs. nurture on sailnet? Who would have guessed that. :)

deniseO30 04-27-2013 08:21 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
North LOL

"I see some female sailors, but the numbers aren't close. Just not as many with the drive, and I believe that it is in our DNA, something in men that makes them driven to explore, where women are more likely to "nest".

Blanket statement, just not true!


"The book serves a purpose. There are wives and girlfriends going along, with less knowledge. If and when I take a woman out on my boat, I will have to teach her to sail, I have done it before and I will do it again. "
Your a teacher, and your still learning yourself??

" It's just the way it is",
No it's not

They're just not out there pushing me further, teaching me to be better. How many woman were taught by a man? 90%?
Ladies do yourself a favor! If your male "teacher" uses the word "I" in every sentence....RUN! Don't let a man teach you all his mistakes and ego driven statements, find women sail instructors, and you will learn something!

northoceanbeach 04-27-2013 06:38 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deniseO30 (Post 1022028)
Your a teacher, and your still learning yourself??
]

I've heard one of the best things about sailing is that we are always learning. It doesn't mean I can't teach a beginner basic sailing skills. I'm going to the library tonight to get a beginner sailing boom to teach a female the basics.

Maybe it is sexist that she is not teaching me. Maybe it is sexist against men that we have to do so much and get little credit.

Who is funding these big new race boats? Men. I they didn't put up the money, new advances could to be made. I might not use the technology now, but one day it will trickle down and become common place.

So I will go with yes, sailing can be sexist against men because whenever a woman does the same thing a man does she often feels like she deserves extra credit and she probably gets more attention.

I really don't know much about the professional race scene, but I'll bet most of the crew, the funding, the designers...are men.

Who won the last America's cup?

Larry Ellison, Russell Couts, James Spithill.

Has a woman ever won?

emcentar 05-02-2013 04:22 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
My nesting instinct compels me to throw sexist sailors off my boat. They are bad chi. ;)

bljones 05-02-2013 04:45 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by northoceanbeach (Post 1022193)
Who won the last America's cup?

Larry Ellison, Russell Couts, James Spithill.

Has a woman ever won?

Which, one could argue, demonstrates the inherent sexism of the sport.

Since we're cherrypicking sailing achievements, I posit that when provided with the same opportunities as their males peers, the women can, and do shine.
For example:
Tania Aebi
Jessica Watson
Laura Decker
Northoceanbeach

Which one hasn't sailed around the world?

Minnewaska 05-02-2013 05:48 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
That's simply a slam on an individual poster. Have there been more men or women that have circumnavigated? I'm not arguing that men are superior sailor, I'm just calling out the argument above as personal.

bljones 05-02-2013 06:14 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 1024691)
I'm just calling out the argument above as personal.

Hardly- substitute my name, or minnewaska, or, hell, Larry Ellison, and the point remains the same. One of those names on the list is male, and one of those names hasn't circumnavigated and those names are the same.

emcentar 05-02-2013 06:15 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
For what it's worth, I don't see nearly as many ads trying to sell me a Philippino wife on the non-sailing boards I frequent.

bljones 05-02-2013 10:17 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Alas, us male sailors are apparently suckers for pinoy affection.

Minnewaska 05-03-2013 06:06 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1024714)
Hardly- substitute my name, or minnewaska, or, hell, Larry Ellison, and the point remains the same. One of those names on the list is male, and one of those names hasn't circumnavigated and those names are the same.

I still don't get it. If I list three random male circumnavigators and one random female who hasn't, all that points out is the individual that hasn't. A personal slam. Nothing to do with gender equality or inequality.

Nevertheless, I will repeat that sailing is not sexist. Females can sail. Males can sail. The relative strength, skill and aptitude of the individual is what separates them, not gender. Individuals are, however, sexist.

NFL football is sexist and there is no equality in interest to participate.

I remain curious as to the proportion of males vs. females that have an interest to participate in sailing, if there were no other boundaries. Instinct doesn't count here.

bljones 05-03-2013 09:44 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 1024948)
I still don't get it. If I list three random male circumnavigators and one random female who hasn't, all that points out is the individual that hasn't. A personal slam. Nothing to do with gender equality or inequality.

.

It really isn't that hard to get. Further, if the name doesn't matter, then it obviously not a personal slam.
However, repeatedly calling a post a "slam" is a slam. You're seeing intentions that just aren't there.

zeehag 05-04-2013 07:01 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
28 Attachment(s)
until early 1960s, you would be hard pressed to find a female sailor. we were still being taught that LADIES do NOT sail.
rodlmao. we still were banned from wood shop and metal shop, if you will remember a bit of time ago....


rodlmao.

we have come a loong way, baby.

Sal Paradise 05-04-2013 07:15 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Had to rig my boat today. That mast is HEAVY. Earlier I had to clean the bilge and paint it. Disgusting. Then I was under the boat epoxing up cracks in the keel gelcoat. Messy and smelly. I will be doing more jobs that take muscle power, determination and focus. All to get the sailboat rigged and set in her slip. I had my wife and one other guy working with me today. The wife tries but she really isn't strong. I really needed someone with MUSCLE.


We have always been 50-50 paertners on our boats. But they are mine. I'm sure my wife can use the tiller just fine once we are sailing. I'm sure she can sheet the main. Yippeee. The boat will be mine because of the work I've done on her.

Is the fact that I have to lift a heavy mast or scrape and paint sexist? I think not. It just is. Men were the small engines of the world 100 years ago.


edit - I just saw my post follows zeehag. zeehag you are more of a sailor than I am. Respect. And there is no shop class anymore, for anyone.

deniseO30 05-04-2013 08:41 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sal Paradise (Post 1025617)
Had to rig my boat today. That mast is HEAVY. Earlier I had to clean the bilge and paint it. Disgusting. Then I was under the boat epoxing up cracks in the keel gelcoat. Messy and smelly. I will be doing more jobs that take muscle power, determination and focus. All to get the sailboat rigged and set in her slip. I had my wife and one other guy working with me today. The wife tries but she really isn't strong. I really needed someone with MUSCLE.

Babies are heavy, laundry is heavy, cleaning up after a man is disgusting messy and smelly! Wife will make all the things nice, cook, clean YOUR mess, take your attitude with silence and continue to love you. (beats me why)

We have always been 50-50 paertners on our boats. But they are mine. I'm sure my wife can use the tiller just fine once we are sailing. I'm sure she can sheet the main. Yippeee. The boat will be mine because of the work I've done on her.
You never planned to share another lady (your boat) with your wife


Is the fact that I have to lift a heavy mast or scrape and paint sexist? I think not.
No.. it's your thinking that is from caveman 101

It just is. Men were the small engines of the world 100 years ago.
Ever see a lions pride? don't ever mess with the ladies. (Lioness's)

Jus :puke

Sal Paradise 05-05-2013 07:12 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Denise,

you seem to be arguing for sexism. Women nurture is what you are saying.

For my own post, I was was just ranting because my own work was all effed up. Nothing much to do with sexism or what my wife or anyone did..... my boat is a mess, still on the hard..rigging laying all over the place...that kind of thing. I just switched to a much cheaper yard.. its actually the back of a waterfront bar, no power,no water , no crane, no room... you have to work on the road. But half the price and a mile from my house. And a tiki bar 50 feet from my slip. ;-) But right now not only is my boat messed up, its on the side of the road. So, I was just ranting. I have no idea who is sexist and why. But this too shall pass. I had a snickers bar and now I'm back to my old self.

And I do my own laundry. With that, I am done with this thread. Fair winds everyone.

northoceanbeach 05-06-2013 12:55 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Totally a slam. You didn't pick a random name, ou picked mine. That makes it not random.

Why not take an actual random list of all the names of the people whi have circumnavigated and see how many are women.

You are only proving my earlier point that when women accomplish what a man has done many times they get more recognition. In this case for circumnavigating.

Isn't it slightly sexist to have a her sailnet but no his sailnet to talk about men specific issues?

I'm not sexist. Any person that walked down the dock and asked for my help I would give it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1024658)
Which, one could argue, demonstrates the inherent sexism of the sport.

Since we're cherrypicking sailing achievements, I posit that when provided with the same opportunities as their males peers, the women can, and do shine.
For example:
Tania Aebi
Jessica Watson
Laura Decker
Northoceanbeach

Which one hasn't sailed around the world?


smackdaddy 05-06-2013 01:04 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
78 Attachment(s)
Sexist? Siiiiggggghhhh.

Sam Davies.

I don't care what's between that sailor's legs. She is truly that.

jameswilson29 05-06-2013 06:36 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1024658)
... I posit that when provided with the same opportunities as their males peers, the women can, and do shine...

Exactly...and if we would only install certain people in a the air-conditioned corner office in control of certain things, they would perform equally admirably.

Unfortunately for those folks who are waiting for someone to provide them with the "same opportunities", the world is a competitive place and there are those of us who will pursue and take those opportunities ("the hunters") without waiting for someone to hand them to us ("the gatherers").

If you think the world owes you something, you are already lost. Life ain't fair. Get over it.

bljones 05-06-2013 10:47 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by northoceanbeach (Post 1026080)
Totally a slam. You didn't pick a random name, ou picked mine. That makes it not random.

Why not take an actual random list of all the names of the people whi have circumnavigated and see how many are women.

You are only proving my earlier point that when women accomplish what a man has done many times they get more recognition. In this case for circumnavigating.

Isn't it slightly sexist to have a her sailnet but no his sailnet to talk about men specific issues?

I'm not sexist. Any person that walked down the dock and asked for my help I would give it.

I picked YOUR name, because I was replying to YOUR post.
That doesn't make it a slam.

bljones 05-06-2013 10:55 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jameswilson29 (Post 1026109)
Unfortunately for those folks who are waiting for someone to provide them with the "same opportunities", the world is a competitive place and there are those of us who will pursue and take those opportunities ("the hunters") without waiting for someone to hand them to us ("the gatherers").

If you think the world owes you something, you are already lost. Life ain't fair. Get over it.

Is that what you tell your divorce clients, counselor, or do you tell them that you are worth what you are worth because it is your job to level the playing field and get an equitable and fair settlement? ;)

While a big picture discussion of sexism as a whole is interesting, I'm not sure how all of this relates to the self-proclaimed and self-evident bigger, stronger tougher half of a boating couple staying planted behind the wheel and nudging the throttle while the smaller, weaker half is on the bow fighting with the anchor and rode.... which is essentially the sort of semi-amusing sexism that prompted this topic...


...Unless one believes that he "hunts" for the anchorage, and she "gathers" the anchor and rode.

northoceanbeach 05-06-2013 12:18 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Soooo if I used your name to minimize your accomplishments and try to make you feel unqualified to speak on a certain topic that's not a slam? Perhaps you regret this but wont own your mistake.

As sad above. Without knowing those women's history I would guess they were raised on the water by their parents. Like the Dutch girl that at 16 attempted to circumnavigate but lost her boat in SE Asia. It's easier I you were raised with your father teaching you sailing. I had only ever been on a boat, not even a sailboat until I was 16 once, fishing on a lake in Iowa, an at 16 a ferry across the English Channel. If I had co parents I probably would have circ. by now.

bljones 05-06-2013 12:39 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by northoceanbeach (Post 1026282)
Soooo if I used your name to minimize your accomplishments and try to make you feel unqualified to speak on a certain topic that's not a slam? Perhaps you regret this but wont own your mistake.

As sad above. Without knowing those women's history I would guess they were raised on the water by their parents. Like the Dutch girl that at 16 attempted to circumnavigate but lost her boat in SE Asia. It's easier I you were raised with your father teaching you sailing. I had only ever been on a boat, not even a sailboat until I was 16 once, fishing on a lake in Iowa, an at 16 a ferry across the English Channel. If I had co parents I probably would have circ. by now.

I'm not subtle. If I intended to slam you, it would be far, far more apparent.
The fact that you feel slammed does not mean that a slamming occurred or was intended by this author, who, once again, was. not. slamming. you. HTFU.
Now, moving on to the rest of your post above ("as sad above" is the most appropriate freudian typo I have read today), as I mentioned in my post to minee where he (also incorrectly) described my post as a slam, I pouinted out that you could substitute MY NAME or his name, or larry Ellison and the point would be the same- the chicks have lapped the planet. I haven't, he hasn't you haven't....
and AC winner larry Ellison hasn't either. That was my point, now well and truly lost- that simply because one has not won the AC is not proof of lack of competence or ability, and not proof positive of equality either. That is akin to arguing that since a woman has not won the Masters that women are lousy golfers.

Are we clear on this now, or do you plan to keep slamming me by casting negative aspersions on my motives and accusing me of bashing which does not exist?


btw, for the record, I hope that you do manage a circ one day, if that is your wish.

Donna_F 05-06-2013 12:44 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
No slamming, no aspersions. Let's get back to sexism, please.

bljones 05-06-2013 12:50 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DRFerron (Post 1026292)
No slamming, no aspersions. Let's get back to sexism, please.

shouldn't you be in the kitchen? ;)

Donna_F 05-06-2013 12:51 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1026294)
shouldn't you be in the kitchen? ;)

Don't make me pull your plug. :)

bljones 05-06-2013 12:53 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Hey, you asked for a return to sexism.

Ajax_MD 05-06-2013 01:29 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
How about a return to just plain, old sex? :D

smackdaddy 05-06-2013 02:02 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
78 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1026221)
While a big picture discussion of sexism as a whole is interesting, I'm not sure how all of this relates to the self-proclaimed and self-evident bigger, stronger tougher half of a boating couple staying planted behind the wheel and nudging the throttle while the smaller, weaker half is on the bow fighting with the anchor and rode.... which is essentially the sort of semi-amusing sexism that prompted this topic...


...Unless one believes that he "hunts" for the anchorage, and she "gathers" the anchor and rode.

Okay. That's good.

Minnewaska 05-06-2013 05:35 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1026221)
.... I'm not sure how all of this relates to the self-proclaimed and self-evident bigger, stronger tougher half of a boating couple staying planted behind the wheel and nudging the throttle while the smaller, weaker half is on the bow fighting with the anchor and rode.... ....

My smaller, weaker half stands at the bow with a windlass remote in her hands and points to where she wants me to steer. I'm the non-comm helmsman in this scenario, that's all.

I see no sexist role. Either position is fairly mundane.

LinekinBayCD 05-06-2013 06:15 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Is it sexist to recognize that there are physical and psychological differences between men and women. I don't think so. It would be sexist to discriminate against a female in favor of a male in circumstances where those differences don't matter. Where physical strength is an aspect of a job or activity you would be crazy not to expect men to perform better.

You want a captain for an Americas Cup racer man or woman, who ever you think can get it done. Want a grinder for that same boat it's going to be a guy.

Kind of telling the lack of participation by women in this thread. Guys like combat.

wind_magic 05-06-2013 06:46 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Some sexism on a boat is self-reinforcing. An example is something like a winch, it could be made to have whatever mechanical advantage the manufacturer wants to give it based on the diameter of the winch, the length of the winch handle, etc, but because most sailors are men it is designed for a man, for a man's reach, the amount of power a typical man can apply to it. Think about it, it could easily be twice as hard to turn, or half as hard, but it is designed so that an adult male can raise a sail in the shortest amount of time using a fair amount of his muscle strength, it is optimized for a typical male. If it were designed for a woman, sure, it might take a little bit longer to raise a sail because it would require a few more turns, but a woman wouldn't have to work any harder to use a winch than a man does. So you end up in this situation where it really is harder for a woman to work a winch, maybe even beyond her strength, because the winch was never designed for her, and then men use that to justify to themselves that women can't handle the boat. Well, most men couldn't use a winch on a boat if they were designed to be used by professional football players.

We all need mechanical advantage to operate a sailboat, and it would only take just a little more mechanical advantage for women to operate one just as well as a man.

I'm not saying there aren't differences between men and women, of course there are, but that shouldn't matter where winches and windlasses are involved.

zeehag 05-06-2013 07:10 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
28 Attachment(s)
before winches and windlasses it was easier, i think--didnt have to suffer crappy winches when the awesome blocks and tackles worked just fine n dandy , thankyou. i still prefer belaying pins to cleats and i prefer block and tackle set ups to winches. i especially appreciate them as my sheet winch for main has failed nicely.....

ggrrrrr.....


lol

deniseO30 05-06-2013 08:15 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Almost without exception, whenever I see a couple on a boat the guy is at the helm and the Mrs is on the bow, jumping to the dock tying lines etc, even deploying or trying to break the anchor out.

Yes, she may be weaker physically and yes, it would be sexist to say she should do less physical work but; to reverse it and justify why he's at the helm because; "it's his boat, women can't park, don't have the intellect for navigation or it's "traditional" and male privilege. Is a very mixed message also.

It's not because she's incapable of Being a helms-person. It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation.

Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had.

I could go on about how so many women are self defeated, done before they start, run and hide when things get difficult, or just defer to the Man to do what she's learned to get done by being feminine. Gossip, peer pressure and derision are a very large part of what keeps women from becoming more able in the many areas that are traditionally male.

Mechanical advantage, "how things work" is a mystery to many women. (and many men) But, it can be learned.

JimMcGee 05-06-2013 09:47 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Hmm, here's a thought from a different angle.

Women have had a BIG effect on sailboat design in recent years, probably more than those America's Cup racers.

Why? Because production boat manufacturers recognized that wives have a big say in the purchase so they started asking what was important to them. They found women had different priorities than men and that influenced design.

So if manufacturers are catering designs to women why are there still fewer women owners?

First couples outnumber singles by a pretty wide margin in every marina we've been in.

But maybe the reason you don't see more single women owning sail boats has as much to do with marketing as anything else. Boat manufacturers only advertise in sailing magazines, mostly read by people who already sail.

Maybe advertising outside the sailing rags would bring new people into the sport and reach more women who might be interested.

BTW, for us sailing is a reason to spend time together and that's a good thing.

JimMcGee 05-06-2013 10:06 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deniseO30 (Post 1026484)
Almost without exception, whenever I see a couple on a boat the guy is at the helm and the Mrs is on the bow, jumping to the dock tying lines etc, even deploying or trying to break the anchor out.

Yes, she may be weaker physically and yes, it would be sexist to say she should do less physical work but; to reverse it and justify why he's at the helm because; "it's his boat, women can't park, don't have the intellect for navigation or it's "traditional" and male privilege. Is a very mixed message also.

It's not because she's incapable of Being a helms-person. It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation.

Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had.

I could go on about how so many women are self defeated, done before they start, run and hide when things get difficult, or just defer to the Man to do what she's learned to get done by being feminine. Gossip, peer pressure and derision are a very large part of what keeps women from becoming more able in the many areas that are traditionally male.

Mechanical advantage, "how things work" is a mystery to many women. (and many men) But, it can be learned.

Denise, just because someone is on the bow doesn't mean they're being demeaned.

And your comment about "self defeated, done before they start, run and hide when things get difficult, or just defer to (someone else)" could apply equally to a lot of men I know. I see that as a personality thing more than a gender thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deniseO30 (Post 1026484)
When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight

Umm, my wife is a Philly girl. 'Nuf said :laugher

In any long term relationship you tend to fall into roles and habits that are comfortable. I tend to do the mechanical stuff on our boat. Not because I don't think my wife could learn, but because I enjoy it and she has no interest. But then I don't get everything she enjoys either.

But if we were exactly the same life would be boring wouldn't it? :D

aeventyr60 05-06-2013 10:09 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Whenever I've had new sailing friends (couples) on the boat, the Women are the better helmsmen(person). seems the gals have a better touch on the wheel, something about finesse I guess. The guys want to muscle it and drive all over creation. I'll take a gal at the wheel any day.

tempest 05-06-2013 10:25 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
It's a pretty open ended question..

It seems to me that, Sailing is sailing. People like it or they don't. Many who don't seem to take to it view it as " alot of work"

There's certainly enough men who feel the same way, evidenced by the number of powerboats and jet skiers who prefer to simply turn a key and go.

Typically, I think people are introduced to sailing somehow..either by a parent, a friend, school etc. IF that was a good experience, there's a good chance you might continue.
There are two sisters who occasionally sail with me, whose dad owned the same boat as me growing up. One likes the relaxing aspect, one loves helming, trimming and going fast.

I think Wind Magic's point re: the loads on winches etc is valid and something for designers to consider.
They do make electric winches and those power assist drills that I see at boat shows..I expect that I'll need them someday..or I'll make the typical trawler transition when I can't manage the forces.

There's no shortage of women sailors in my marina. There are several women who own their own vessel. There are quite a few couples who appear to share all the work and the women are all very knowlegable, capable and enthusiastic sailors. My slip neighbor's wife made a leap to the dock last summer that I wouldn't attempt. He was getting blown away from the finger pier. She made the jump before I could get there to help.

I've worked with three female sailing instructors. though, there definitely seems to be more men.

As it happens, my marina is family owned and run. 3 brothers and 6 sisters. ( one a competitive sailor) Three of the women are over 6' tall, any one of them could/would kick my @#$ if I suggested that they had limitations because they were female.

JennyWren 05-06-2013 11:07 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Hello. First post here, long one to make it worthwhile. :p

I don’t “get out much” in that we rarely race, don’t use clubs and marinas and sail on our own or with only a few friends. We don’t have much to do with other sailors, so my experience probably isn’t typical.

Most of the sexism encountered personally is attitudinal over boat ownership and knowledge of one’s own boat - not something that has practical consequences, just irritating.

For some – male and female - it seems women only own boats when there is absolutely no boyfriend, husband, brother or male business partner within cooee that ownership can be attributed to. They also automatically view a boat co-owned by a male and a female as “his”.

I own our boats with my husband. In spite of one of them being entered in a particular event at a particular club for many years in both names every single time, he was not that long ago publicly noted as the sole owner with nil acknowledgement of me. I don’t think anybody thought, “let’s make sure we ignore the female owner because wives don't count” but that said, I doubt ownership of a boat co-owned by two men would have been attributed to one name only.

More than once, though it’s a while ago now, I was asked questions about this boat in my husband’s absence, which I answered, only to have the same men ask my husband the same questions about two minutes later. Hardly stops me getting on with life, but the dismissiveness is annoying. Things may be better now, a few years hence ... don't get out enough now to tell.

I note Sal Paradise acknowledges his wife’s 50-50 partnership but feels the boat is his because he does the work. Some comments below are prompted by this, but not aimed at or in criticism of him - everyone’s circumstances and views are different, and this is just my take on that issue.

My husband does the bulk of work on our boats too. He’s the lifelong sailor; I am not. However, he/we only have the boats in the first place because my job pays for them and also buys him the freedom to be primary boat hand. He for his part works long and hard to minimise our maintenance costs and does jobs/makes things that would otherwise cost us thousands. At times I’ve put up with employment situations that if it weren’t for what the boats mean to him would have had me walking out of my profession and settling for significantly lower pay. It’s not “my” money because I earn it, it’s “our” family income, but whether or not we have enough of it to remain boat owners with his time free for maintenance is mostly down to me.

He’s stronger and fitter than I, yes, but not built like a front row forward and there’s enough jobs that need my help. But that’s not the point – I earned and owned our boats well before I ever picked up a sanding block or helped re-step a mast.

(As does – in my view – a non-sailing partner who supports family income being spent on boats instead of retirement savings or things of mutual interest.)

The odd man has tried to take over from me on board, as has the odd man ashore when spouse and I are getting to and from boats. I can tell when a man “gets” that I normally manage for myself and he just wants be useful, and that’s kind and appreciated. When he starts giving me instructions, assuming husband knows what to do but I must be in need of direction from some random male I’ve never clapped eyes on before, that’s another thing altogether. There’s one individual, otherwise a decent bloke, that I won’t have aboard because of takeover tendencies, though he’s welcome to crew in my absence. I don’t “justify” my place on my boat – push me aside more than once and you’re not coming back. I’d blacklist a woman for this too, but so far haven’t had cause. Ashore, if it’s something I want to do myself, it’s a polite “under control, thanks, nice of you to offer though”. Gratuitous instruction doesn't stop me getting on with life, but is an irritation nonetheless.

In closing I’d also note that recognising that some people have a few extra roadblocks put in their way is hardly expecting life to be handed to you on a plate.

(Oh - and those women who say things to me like "there's nothing here [at boat show X] for us girls" or "we women don't know anything about [insert mechanical item or process]" or "we girls don't like [insert any aspect of sailing that might mess up your hair]" really annoy me. Ask my opinion before you presume to speak on my behalf, thanks very much. :rolleyes: )

northoceanbeach 05-06-2013 11:14 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I don't think it has anything to do with marketing. If ou are not into sailing in the first place ou don't see any marketing. It's not like Seinfeld has ads for beneteau.

The marketing is geared towards the target audience. It doesn't make the target audience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMcGee (Post 1026540)
Hmm, here's a thought from a different angle.

First women have had a BIG effect on sailboat design in recent years, probably more than those America's Cup racers.

Why? Because production boat manufacturers recognized that wives have a big say in the purchase so they started asking what was important to them. They found women had different priorities than men and that influenced design.

So if manufacturers are catering designs to women why are their fewer women owners?

Well first couples outnumber singles by a pretty wide margin in every marina we've been in.

But maybe the reason you don't see more single women owning sail boats has as much to do with marketing as anything else. Boat manufacturers only advertise in sailing magazines, mostly read by people who already sail.

Maybe advertising outside the sailing rags would bring new people into the sport. Since half the population is female - well do the math. :rolleyes:

BTW, for us sailing is a reason to spend time together and that's a good thing.


Donna_F 05-07-2013 10:31 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Well said, JennyWren and welcome to SailNet!

zedboy 05-07-2013 12:21 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by deniseO30 (Post 1026484)
Almost without exception, whenever I see a couple on a boat the guy is at the helm and the Mrs is on the bow, jumping to the dock tying lines etc, even deploying or trying to break the anchor out.

Old the old boat (OB in well and too far forward for easy reach from helm), we anchored with me on the bow, my then-5-year-old son on the throttle, and my then-7-year-old daughter at helm. Worked good.

I would want whoever's got the most experience on the bow calling the shots.

Minnewaska 05-07-2013 03:17 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Sexism is self-perpetuating.

I read the example above of how one felt dismissed because a man was asked the same question that a women just answered. It could have been dismissive. However, the first thought that went through my mind is buddies that will continually ask me the same question, they would then ask the dog, a stranger or just talk to the piling. They often don't accept anyone's answer or just want to talk about the topic.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you want to see sexism, it will remain.

bljones 05-07-2013 04:36 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 1026872)
If you want to see sexism, it will remain.

and dismissing it won't make it go away.

poopdeckpappy 05-07-2013 05:42 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Ya know, I'm not so sure that sailing is sexist, where else can a women step foot aboard and immediately become ***ADMIRAL***

Wait, you may be right!!, it is sexist!! Well just kiss my a$$ from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard,dead! Niedermeyer... oops, sorry, got caught up in the moment:o

GeorgeB 05-07-2013 05:43 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Isn’t “Whenever I've had new sailing friends (couples) on the boat, the Women are the better helmsmen(person). seems the gals have a better touch on the wheel, something about finesse I guess. The guys want to muscle it and drive all over creation. I'll take a gal at the wheel any day.” a little sexist statement in its own right?:D

Mrs. B and I jointly own all the boats we’ve bought since our nuptials. We both appear on all the paperwork. The club membership is in my name (why pay double the dues?). Mrs. B is very familiar with all the boat systems (sometimes too familiar!) She is not a string puller and helms for personal enjoyment. Yes, she hands the helm to me during sea and anchor details and when the wind pipes up, and during nighttime… But she does this for enjoyment and not to prove anything (she already has about 1,000 open ocean miles on her resume). I need you female sailnetters to write her a stern letter and make her do all the things she personally doesn’t like to do for the sake of saving me from appearing sexist.:rolleyes:

JennyWren 05-09-2013 03:13 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Thanks for the welcome, DRFerron. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 1026872)
Sexism is self-perpetuating.

I read the example above of how one felt dismissed because a man was asked the same question that a women just answered. It could have been dismissive. However, the first thought that went through my mind is buddies that will continually ask me the same question, they would then ask the dog, a stranger or just talk to the piling. They often don't accept anyone's answer or just want to talk about the topic.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you want to see sexism, it will remain.

Quite so, but it would never have occurred to me personally to go looking for sexism, in fact the opposite. I work in a traditionally-male-dominated field, at times in the past with particularly male-oriented applications and subject matter, and have never personally encountered sexism from colleagues, so I wasn't on the lookout for it in the comparatively benign field of boat ownership.

It was just noticeable - to both of us - how often there was a different reaction to the same factual response (year of boat launch, boat builder, boat designer, stuff like that) when delivered by a female and a male.

Though hardly an issue that makes any difference to my ability to get on with life, it was a bit of a surprise.

I currently have a work colleague who *would* ask you, me, him, the dog, the piling, any passing seagull and the probably boat itself, and would not absorb a thing any of us said on an equal-opportunity basis. ;)

Minnesail 05-09-2013 11:35 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Here's another example along the lines of the winches being geared for an average man's strength and are thus a little heavy for an average woman.

Yesterday I got a Mustang MD3184 inflatable PDF with harness (happy birthday to me!). According to the manual "The harness is designed to be worn by persons at least 5 feet 5 inches tall."

I'm guessing 90% of men are over 5' 5", but maybe 50% of women. My wife is only 5' 0", so she'd have to wear a separate PFD and harness if she were going to clip in. Not that this is horrible, but it's just one more little thing that women have to put up with that men never think about. As they say, privilege is invisible to those who have it.

deniseO30 05-09-2013 11:40 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnesail (Post 1027686)
As they say, privilege is invisible to those who have it.

Very good observation!

TomMaine 05-09-2013 08:15 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1017475)
I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?

Absolutely. In a world where my wife or daughter will make on average, 75 cents to the dollar I'll make, doing the same task, how could the world of sailing possibly escape?

But those are salary averages. Fortunately, each person is different in regards to sexism, and can help to make the world in general(and sailing as well), less sexist.

Due simply to the archaic sexist title, no one ought to buy that book.

wind_magic 05-09-2013 11:46 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think.

DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."

Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)

I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.

To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?

Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.

Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.

TomMaine 05-10-2013 08:22 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
The existence of sexism isn't debatable. It's undisputable fact, like racism. But that doesn't say an individual is sexist or not. And sexism goes both ways. I don't like being stereotyped by my gender. But sexism is primarily aimed at women.

In the context of the OP, I again can't see how sailing would escape the effects of sexism. The title, which many women I know, would resent as stereotypical, is proof.

Minnewaska 05-10-2013 08:33 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Sexism most definitely exists. So does competition. Survival of the fittest is natural evolution or do we believe we can think that way? Big vs small, strong vs weak, dominant vs submissive. These apply woman to woman as well as man to woman. Its all too convenient and overgeneralized to suggest its all sexism. Every woman that I know that has made the same effort to learn to sail as I did, is at least as good at it. Those that haven't are not, and I'm having trouble attributing that simply to gender bias. Any man who has taken the back seat or made less effort is just as far behind the curve.

The book title is out of line.

LinekinBayCD 05-10-2013 08:47 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wind_magic (Post 1028002)
I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think.

DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."

Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)

I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a ***** (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.

To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?

Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.

Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.

You said it much better than I could.. Not to call out Denise, but when I read her post my first impression was that it highlighted the inherent differences between men and women.

Stereotypes exist because they have a basis in fact and reality. The problem arises when you discriminate against an individual because of general stereotypes. It does not mean the general stereotypes are not accurate.

bljones 05-10-2013 09:07 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wind_magic (Post 1028002)
I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

Show me a game where there's two sets of rules. The only possible example i can think of is golf, where there are two sets of tees, which doesn't mean ****e if you can't putt.

Look, I get the whole big picture "take" vs. "give" argument, but why should one sex have to take what has been given to the other sex for free, simply for having a pulse, like the right to vote or equal pay for equal work?

Minnewaska 05-10-2013 09:57 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
There is not a woman among the 1100 people that work for me that isn't paid exactly what a male is paid for doing the same job, with the same experience.

There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc. A male in that job gets paid the same. In at least one case, its the same job, but she only works 4 days per week, so she gets 80% of the pay for the job.

Some of the comparisons are flawed. So, on average, the higher paying jobs probably have more men in them, but not at all exclusively. The women are paid the same, if they are doing the same job. In my last senior hire, I intentionally said it would be nice to have another woman on the team. Of the qualified applicants, they were 5 to 1, male. I hired a woman because she was the best of them. If she wasn't, I wouldn't have.

Anecdotally, we had a female that was the President of one of our subsidiaries. Men got along fine with her, but always watched their backs. Women hated her.

Want another? I know of a woman on a board of directors that fails to show up for most meetings. The only reason she hasn't been fired is because they are concerned over not finding another woman for the seat. True story.

Minnewaska 05-10-2013 10:01 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1028121)
Show me a game where there's two sets of rules. The only possible example i can think of is golf, where there are two sets of tees, which doesn't mean ****e if you can't putt.

Look, I get the whole big picture "take" vs. "give" argument, but why should one sex have to take what has been given to the other sex for free, simply for having a pulse, like the right to vote or equal pay for equal work?

If the putting analogy were good, there wouldn't be a different set of tees.

I once played with a woman in my foursome that played from the white tees, like the three men. She won. If you can do the job, you get the creds. If you can't, it's not always because mommy and daddy put pink ribbons in your hair. Some people win, some lose and it just isn't always fair.

bljones 05-10-2013 10:38 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Okay, so let's get back to sailing. Minnewaska, earlier you mention that it is no big deal for your wife to be on the bow handling the anchor, because you have a power windlass so there is no sexism in the roles...
...how about before you had a windlass- were you on the bow heaving and hauling, or were you stroking the throttle?

bljones 05-10-2013 11:31 AM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 1028159)

There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc.

Which is a great example of sexism- why is it HER job to pick up the kids off the bus? Why does SHE have to take time off work? Even in households where incomes are equal, and where both parties have hour flexibility, it usual does fall to the wife to take time off to pick up the kids, etc.

It's our knee-jerk response to say "No,I'm not sexist, it's just...." - but we are. It may not be overt or intentional, but we are. I'm guilty of it. And i get called on it. It just strikes me that our nautical world is more accepting of sexism than the world at large, maybe because it is a predominantly male environment.

Minnewaska 05-10-2013 01:16 PM

Re: Is Sailing Sexist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bljones (Post 1028185)
Okay, so let's get back to sailing. Minnewaska, earlier you mention that it is no big deal for your wife to be on the bow handling the anchor, because you have a power windlass so there is no sexism in the roles...
...how about before you had a windlass- were you on the bow heaving and hauling, or were you stroking the throttle?

In fact, it was me. My father made me do it. Since she's been around, we've always had a windlass.

Maybe he was kid-ist


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:43 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome