Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat. - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 18 Old 03-12-2016 Thread Starter
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Lots of good advice, keep it coming.

The reason I said I was looking for post 1988 boats is that I have been concentrating my searches on the C30 largely due to the phenomenal online support and owners group. The production process changed in '88 to eliminate wood from the mast step support and the keel stub so I was trying to eliminate 2 potential problems from the list of issues that might effect a near 30 year old boat.

I do have a little time docking stink boats (don't hate me for that) so have experienced propwalk, windage and cross currents a little, so that may help.

I don't think I'm willing to look at anything smaller than 30, even the C30 felt small. I would really like a C34 but when I combine the significantly higher costs involved with increased difficulty for a keelboat rookie captain I have concentrating my efforts on the 30.

I did however look at an O'Day 35 (I know, a bit of a contradiction to my last statement) which I really liked but due to my concern about the possibility of some wet decks I have put on hold. (the decks feel very solid but there are some good cracks around some pulpit bases. Not sure I want to pay a surveyor to confirm my suspicions. ) if there is anyone in the Cleveland area who would be willing to take a quick look at the boat that would be a huge help. I really just want to know if it's worth taking the next step (surveyor)
Would you consider O'Day a major manufacturer? (albeit a defunct one).

I have been all over yachtworld,sailboatlistings,Craigslist, local broker website for months.
Hadn't really considered th J30, I thought it was more a racer, I will check it out.
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post #12 of 18 Old 03-12-2016
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Re: Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.

If a Catalina 34 is in the budget for you, I wouldn't let the extra size (over the C 30) scare you off. The differences between those two will pale compared to either of them vis-a-vis a J24. The advantage here would be more space right away, and the (perhaps slightly) reduced risk of '2-footitis' within a year or two. Great layout (though IMO the only slightly larger C36 has a much better galley), excellent cockpit. If the moorage and other associated costs with a somewhat bigger boat is manageable, I think you'd be fine with one of these.

The J30 can actually be a decent family cruiser with the added performance 'bonus'.. but in many ways smaller. The attraction for you would probably be 'brand loyalty' and the racier feel.. btw there were two models, one of which has a more comfortable cruising cockpit layout.

ODay, Cal, Ranger, Sabre, C&C, CS, Hunter, and the various Euro brands for the '80s heyday of production sailboats will all fit your bill. The trick is finding one that's been well maintained, with minimal typical issues, in your area and at your price point.

btw.. the majority of former 'major' builders are now 'defunct'. That's part of the appeal of Catalina, although in truth you more often need parts/repairs for the third party items in a boat like engines, winches, fridges, etc.. add-ons like that so in that respect it matters little if the builder is still in business.

Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)

Last edited by Faster; 03-12-2016 at 03:11 PM.
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post #13 of 18 Old 03-12-2016
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Re: Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.

I have to think Newt missed the part about weekending and longer cruising (if not please correct me). I can't imagine cruising a J-24 with a family. For day sailing sure it's fine, but for any type of cruising, no.

I really wouldn't worry about the length issue. The difference in a 30 and 35' boat are pretty minimal. The docking loads may be a touch higher, but honestly not enough to worry about. Things change after you break 40-42' and the boats get to large to push off the dock, but in this size range it just isn't a big issue.

As for the J-30... No. It's a great boat, but it is canvassed all wrong for a cruiser. It carries a 163 Jib which is just massive, and difficult to tack. If you switch to a smaller headsail (say a 135) then the boat lacks the drive until the wind really starts to howl. I love them for racing, but for cruising it really isn't set up for it.

I wouldn't exclude J boats, but most of them are going to be retired racers, be stripped down below, and need a lot of work to make habitable. Add in the prices tend to stay high because of their desirability for racing and it's a poor fit I think.

As for an O'day. We did almost exactly what ou are doing on an O'day 39 when I was a kid (five of us not four) and it was fantastic. Years later I raced the snot out of one in North Carolina and loved it still. When we bought our current Beneteau we seriously looked at another O'day 39 and almost bought it, but couldn't make the numbers work (too much heavy weather cruising gear for our day sailer needs). So ya I am a fan of the brand.

If the O'Day you are looking at has a soggy deck, then make an offer contingent on inspection and the seller repairing the core. Or keep looking, no need to get tied down to one example.

Greg
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post #14 of 18 Old 03-12-2016
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Re: Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.

seems like you are narrowing it down. the c-34 is a great boat. I don't know how the slips and mooring are done on your Lake. but in some locations as the west coast slips are at a premium and length matters. we have a 32' boat in a 30 foot slip and we are allowed up to 33 ' . to own a 34 for us the coast of the slip would be 50% higher and we would have bought a bigger boat if the availability was better. the wait time here can be up to five years for boats over 33'. we waited about a year for our 30' slip. the cost of maintaining a 34 will be a bit higher than a 30 but not much if you start out with a well maintained boat.
Don't forget to look at the condition of the sails. There are many small things that can be repaired for little cost but a new set of sails for a 34 can be 8 to 12k.

"FULL TILT II" 2011 BENETEAU FIRST 30
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post #15 of 18 Old 03-12-2016 Thread Starter
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Re: Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.

Some great answers but I still have questions.

The boat I am currently looking at is for sale by owner with no broker involved. I am conflicted as to whether this is an advantage or not. On one hand I like the possibility of a lower price and I like the aspect of being able to pick the brain of the PO and get an idea of how she was maintained and used. The downside is that i am new to this business and have no one to hold my hand through the purchase process, bounce questions off and most importantly help me through the purchase and paperwork process. I will therefore have to rely on the help of my new friends on the forum, so thanks and here we go:

1. Given that the boat is about 2 hours drive away, how do I proceed? The boat is listed at 27k, I have already told the owner that this is more than I am willing to pay and they indicated that they are not firm on the price and open to offers. Should I try to agree a base price prior to viewing the boat or should I say nothing until I have made an inspection?

2. When/if I do make an offer, should I factor in my perceived deficiencies (sails,rigging,etc) or would I make an offer and then wait for the survey results to renegotiate the price? Is there some kind of standard contract I can use and want kind of special terms or conditions might I want to consider adding?

3. Should I progress past 1 &2 and have an offer accepted, do I now pay earnest (?) money pending the sea trial? How much? Does this go into escrow?

4. If the sea trial and any price renegotiation successful, what is the proces to complete the sail? i.e. What paperwork is necessary and how do I determine whether there are any liens against the boat?

Thanks in advance.

Jeremy.
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post #16 of 18 Old 03-12-2016
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Re: Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.

Don't make any offer until you've seen the boat. By all means factor in your perceived shortcomings.

Move to survey and after that possible renegotiations if the surveyor finds things you didn't know or notice. Sea trial is last and can be a 'bail out' if you get a bad vibe.

I imagine there are escrow services.. This is the one thing that a broker would provide. Good faith money is usually 10% or so.
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Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
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post #17 of 18 Old 03-12-2016
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Re: Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I have to think Newt missed the part about weekending and longer cruising (if not please correct me). I can't imagine cruising a J-24 with a family. For day sailing sure it's fine, but for any type of cruising, no.
I did miss that, sorry. I was thinking daysailing/even a weekend on the float. I am properly admonished. As to making an offer- Even if it is just what you want the way you want- please make any offer contingent on a survey... and do not buy a boat without one. (unless you know more about boats than the surveyor)

BTW- I have spent 7 days aboard cruising with 10 people on a Bendy 34. And yes we are all still friends. 3 families that used to charter together. We moved up to a IP 40 after that. Now I like my space- Our Valiant 40 is just big enough for my wife and me and a few grandkids.

Integrity and honesty mean more than money and fame.
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post #18 of 18 Old 03-13-2016
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Re: Getting back to sailing. Stepping up to a keel boat.

Faster's advice is right on.

On a private deal, I've had lawyers and/or documentation service companies handle escrow. Both worked fine, fees were small. I do like knowing the previous owner. If the previous owner is meticulous and everything is kept working even if it's not cosmetically good, that a good sign. If the previous owner is regularly using the boat, that's a good sign.

Keep in mind the buyer is setting his price given known shortcomings. For example, the sails are worn, the gel coat is scratched, the engine has X hours on it.... On the other hand, everything on the equipment list should be there and should be functional, unless specifically called out by the buyer. So if for example a sail that's listed is torn and unrepairable, that should result in some give. Another example would be if the surveyor found a wet spot in the deck that was delaminating. There is no way you make an offer without seeing the boat, and in your case you get the additional assurance of evaluating the seller. I don't buy boats from people I don't trust, don't take good care of their boats, don't use their boats, etc....but that's just me, IMHO it's a good policy.

The sea trial is not about do you like the way the boat sails, it's about a brief check of systems that cannot be checked at the dock or on hard. It is far from a strong assurance. Yea, the engine runs, the rig didn't fall down, the sails went up and worked in the conditions of that particular day. I've never had a deal go bad at sea trial, but have seen many deals fall apart on survey when the surveyor found bad structural problems with the boat on hard.

Good luck!
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