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post #21 of 53 Old 05-15-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
Any first time boat buyer looking @ a 60' cat for ocean cruising needs a pretty damn big bank roll and a good dose of reality check, IMO. But she seems to have the former if she's going to hire a full time crew. That's a cool quarter mil plus, right up front every year!
Anyway, it seems she's taken her ball and gone home 'cause "some really nasty hateful arrogant people" aren't saying what she wanted to hear.
I read the thread and I have to actually take exception with this last part. I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anyone on this forum who actually has the experience necessary to give her good advice on running a 60' fully-crewed cat for full-time living aboard and ocean cruising.

At least no one on this thread gave her anything useful in that regard.

As you say, if she can afford it, it can easily be done. It is done all the time in wealthier circles.

So it's not really about "people not saying what she wanted to hear" - it was really more about people saying stuff that didn't apply and/or telling her to do it like them instead because they know better or make assumptions - and kind of putting her down as they did so. And that's usually the case in these kinds of threads from what I've seen over the years.

I honestly didn't see any of her statements in this thread that warranted the blowback. But it's over now.
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post #22 of 53 Old 05-15-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

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I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anyone on this forum who actually has the experience necessary to give her good advice on running a 60' fully-crewed cat for full-time living aboard and ocean cruising.
As usual, you and I don't see eye to eye on much.
But in this case you are spouting off about what you think and I am speaking from experience. 60' cat, 70' and 85'+ foot monos; not much difference when it comes to full time cruising vessels, with liveaboard owners and professional crews.
And I'm quite sure there are other professionals on here you also dismiss for one reason or another. Odd, to say the least.
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post #23 of 53 Old 05-15-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
As usual, you and I don't see eye to eye on much.
But in this case you are spouting off about what you think and I am speaking from experience. 60' cat, 70' and 85'+ foot monos; not much difference when it comes to full time cruising vessels, with liveaboard owners and professional crews.
And I'm quite sure there are other professionals on here you also dismiss for one reason or another. Odd, to say the least.
I saw your post earlier. I didn't take it that she was wanting a crew to live aboard with her full time. As you quoted her, she said...

Quote:
I will hire experienced crew that work the boat with me when that time comes.
I took that to mean that when she moves from place to place she'll hire crew. In the mean time, she just wanted a spacious boat to live on. Sounded reasonable to me. Yet you said she needed a "reality check". But I think you two might have been talking different realities.

Anyway, I wasn't aware you had owned and bank-rolled large, fully-crewed yachts cap. I think you're one of the very few here. Maybe the only one. So I apologize for incorrectly assuming otherwise.

My point is that this was an "introduce yourself" thread. And the poster is now gone. That's too bad.

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post #24 of 53 Old 05-15-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

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Anyway, I wasn't aware you had owned and bank-rolled large, fully-crewed yachts cap.
Owned and bank rolled? Nope, never said nor implied that, but I was the one that got paid to use up the bank roll. It says that plainly enough..... Oh never mind.

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post #25 of 53 Old 05-15-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

Capta knows best..... don't dare question his assertions as he will try to pillory you....
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post #26 of 53 Old 05-16-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

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My point is that this was an "introduce yourself" thread. And the poster is now gone. That's too bad.
I disagree.

I suspect that inane threads like this (new thread: What should I have for breakfast? ) are either trolls, looking for new arguments to start, or people that have neither the experience, the motivation to do cursory research, nor a clue about sailing. As I get older (and crankier) I find that I don't have the patience to deal with either trolls or dolts. Posting such drivel will get you onto my "Ignore List" pretty quickly, as it did with Lassiegirl.

[EDIT]Lest you think that I was too quick to cut Lassiegirl loose, let's take a look at her contributions to SailNet. Remember this is SailNet, the forum where we discuss things relative to Sailing:
9 posts to "Alright, I hope I don't get clobbered here" - an introduction thread, in which she seems to get off on the right foot.
10 posts to "Raw Vegans?" - in which she gets preachy about how her vegan diet is superior to "meat eaters" diet.
1 post to "Newcomer to Phuket (and Langkawi)" - she would like to visit that area.
9 posts to "God and sailing" - where she shows herself to be a complete lunatic.
4 posts to this thread.

I would have hated to have to spend any time with her, or worse, be stuck with her as a student.
[/EDIT]

I believe that SailNet will be a better forum with members that can post intelligent SAILING RELATED questions/comments/observations.
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Last edited by eherlihy; 05-16-2018 at 07:58 AM.
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post #27 of 53 Old 05-16-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

The time I have spent working at the sailing center has been an eye opener on this topic. Many different types of boats are sailed from the sailing center mono, cats and tri-hulls. Weather that may make for a scary heavy lean, self righting knockdown or roundabout in a mono and an exciting tale to tell can result in a knock over/turtle and salvage in a multi-hull. Yes technically its harder to knock over a multi-hull boat yet those are the ones we are most often called out to rescue. On a small multi-hull its an inconvenience to send out a rib or skiff to right them however on a larger one its a salvage operation.

One may note that for severely disabled sailors who are paraplegics a self righting mono-hull is the sailing vessel of choice and not a multi-hull. We have a number of handicapped sailors who are paraplegics or double amputees who single handed race and about all of them race the heavily ballasted self righting mono's.

Then we have events such as the gents from Michigan who sailed into a squall on their multi-hull out in the Gulf of Mexico without dropping sail/reefing soon enough and ended up pitch pooling the boat having a total loss. Big error in judgement there however with a much more dramatic end result.

I am no expert however have seen enough watching the rescue boats go out to give serious consideration to the pluses and minuses of both types of boats. Currently I would be inclined to go with a mono-hull for a live aboard vessel that can deal with worst case scenarios with a much greater chance of returning to upright after a knockdown and get you more boat for lower cost both on the initial purchase and in marina fees.
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

My experience in this forum has been that folks are tremendously helpful, including many on this thread. I've learned so much by both posting questions and reading others' threads. But you can't come in with an imperious attitude that says, I have the money, now give me a quick summary of exactly what I want, but I don't want to waste my precious time reading to learn enough to pose an intelligent question. People are essentially donating their time to help others they likely will never meet. They are not your domestic help.

To take this in a more constructive direction, I actually have a question related to the topic of this thread. My limited experience chartering catamarans (Nautitech 40, Helia 44, Bali 4.3) in the Caribbean has been that they are quite bad at actually sailing, especially beating. The Nautitech 40 was probably the least bad, but the Bali 4.3 would actually stall during a tack and you'd have to turn on the engine to complete the tack. It was also very nose-heavy with its all-fiberglass nose and while beating in confused seas would plunge heavily into swells producing quite uncomfortable cork-screwing motion. (I myself am a mono sailor during the summer). I noticed most cats in the Caribbean don't even bother sailing closer to the wind, they just motor.

A while ago there was a thread about cats where someone posted a link to an article discussing "good" and "bad" catamarans. Are the cats in the 40-50' range typically found in the Carribean charter fleets (DYC, Moorings, Sunsail etc.) mostly in the "bad" catamaran category, i.e., underpowered and overweight floating condos? Or are some of them (e.g. the Sunsail Leopards) actually fun to sail, and not just with the wind abeam or behind you?
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post #29 of 53 Old 05-16-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaStar58 View Post
The time I have spent working at the sailing center has been an eye opener on this topic. Many different types of boats are sailed from the sailing center mono, cats and tri-hulls. Weather that may make for a scary heavy lean, self righting knockdown or roundabout in a mono and an exciting tale to tell can result in a knock over/turtle and salvage in a multi-hull. Yes technically its harder to knock over a multi-hull boat yet those are the ones we are most often called out to rescue. On a small multi-hull its an inconvenience to send out a rib or skiff to right them however on a larger one its a salvage operation.

One may note that for severely disabled sailors who are paraplegics a self righting mono-hull is the sailing vessel of choice and not a multi-hull. We have a number of handicapped sailors who are paraplegics or double amputees who single handed race and about all of them race the heavily ballasted self righting mono's.

Then we have events such as the gents from Michigan who sailed into a squall on their multi-hull out in the Gulf of Mexico without dropping sail/reefing soon enough and ended up pitch pooling the boat having a total loss. Big error in judgement there however with a much more dramatic end result.

I am no expert however have seen enough watching the rescue boats go out to give serious consideration to the pluses and minuses of both types of boats. Currently I would be inclined to go with a mono-hull for a live aboard vessel that can deal with worst case scenarios with a much greater chance of returning to upright after a knockdown and get you more boat for lower cost both on the initial purchase and in marina fees.
Every choice has its pros and cons, but it all comes down to priorities in the end. I’m with Seastar58 on the self-righting issue, based—if nothing else—on an event 20 or so years ago.

We were in cruising class in the Race Rock Regatta, out of Stonington. As we rounded the western end of Fishers Island, the winds picked up to 45+ kts out of the NE, as we struggled with a sail malfunction. (Our brand new sail could not be reefed properly and we had lost 2 battens—all resolved later under the North warranty). We were beating into it with a single reef and could not flatten the sail as we got the lower lifelines in the water on the roll. We were not enjoying the sailing that day, but we and the boat were fine. However, that was not true of several boats.

When we got back to Stonington Harbor, we saw an overturned 24’ catamaran. That boat had pitchpoled—inside the breakwater—5 minutes after our cruising class start. Maybe they were lucky that they didn’t get caught on the ocean side of Fishers Island and had rescue close at hand.

My vote goes to monohull for obvious reasons.
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post #30 of 53 Old 05-16-2018
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Re: Catamaran or Monohull- which is best?

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My experience in this forum has been that folks are tremendously helpful, including many on this thread. I've learned so much by both posting questions and reading others' threads. But you can't come in with an imperious attitude that says, I have the money, now give me a quick summary of exactly what I want, but I don't want to waste my precious time reading to learn enough to pose an intelligent question. People are essentially donating their time to help others they likely will never meet. They are not your domestic help.

To take this in a more constructive direction, I actually have a question related to the topic of this thread. My limited experience chartering catamarans (Nautitech 40, Helia 44, Bali 4.3) in the Caribbean has been that they are quite bad at actually sailing, especially beating. The Nautitech 40 was probably the least bad, but the Bali 4.3 would actually stall during a tack and you'd have to turn on the engine to complete the tack. It was also very nose-heavy with its all-fiberglass nose and while beating in confused seas would plunge heavily into swells producing quite uncomfortable cork-screwing motion. (I myself am a mono sailor during the summer). I noticed most cats in the Caribbean don't even bother sailing closer to the wind, they just motor.

A while ago there was a thread about cats where someone posted a link to an article discussing "good" and "bad" catamarans. Are the cats in the 40-50' range typically found in the Carribean charter fleets (DYC, Moorings, Sunsail etc.) mostly in the "bad" catamaran category, i.e., underpowered and overweight floating condos? Or are some of them (e.g. the Sunsail Leopards) actually fun to sail, and not just with the wind abeam or behind you?
I don't know if it's a good vs bad thing, it's more a question of how you want to weigh your compromise.

Catamarans are subject to all the same rules of hydro dynamics and aerodynamics as monohulls.

Some of the cruising cats I have observed have high freeboards and big superstructures that create a lot of upwind resistance. When this windage is combined with say, shallow keels for hydrodynamic lift, it is going to have an impact on up wind performance when compared to an otherwise identical boat with a more aerodynamic design above the waterline and a more hydrodynamically efficient design below the waterline.

There is no doubt I my mind that some cruising cats are complete slugs to weather. Earlier this season I was beating to weather in my overloaded asymetrical beach cat and I over took a popular 40ft cruising cat that was motoring hard into the same wind. Not all cats are created equal.
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