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post #41 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

NO...the Bene has a vertical mast... My concept is a horizontal athwartship mast

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post #42 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I think SO is pondering a horizontal wing sail. I believe in such a scenario, there is no forward vector. Think about the angle of attack of a wing making lift.
A glider moves forward doesn't it?

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post #43 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

The concept is not very different from the way a sloop works... the lift is UP and FORWARD and normal to the wind direction.... ie directly INTO the wind.

To sail off the eye of the wind.... the sail/foil needs to rotate and then a keel is needed to prevent leeway.

Don't have time today to make some concept sketches... use your imagination.

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post #44 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
A glider moves forward doesn't it?
More vectors at work. Gravity. Altitude is lost to allow for more forward vector.
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
More vectors at work. Gravity. Altitude is lost to allow for more forward vector.
excuse me? Whether or not this concept can sail directly into wind or not... the fact remains that the sum of the vectors is forward no matter how small it is.

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Re: sailing past close hauled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
The concept is not very different from the way a sloop works... the lift is UP and FORWARD and normal to the wind direction.... ie directly INTO the wind.

To sail off the eye of the wind.... the sail/foil needs to rotate and then a keel is needed to prevent leeway..
I think you have this backwards. The keel's offsetting surface area becomes more relevant, the closer to the wind you get, not as you fall off. Sketch the vectors.

Lift from a sloop that is head into the wind, would be predominantly be to the side, not forward.


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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
excuse me? Whether or not this concept can sail directly into wind or not... the fact remains that the sum of the vectors is forward no matter how small it is.
Not sure what the excuse me means? If you prefer an argument, I'll pass.

If I misunderstand, I'll add that there may be a small theoretical forward vector, only if you ignore the drag vector.


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post #48 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

Your analogy to an airplane doesn't work. On an airplane, the wing provides lift, not forward momentum. The propeller and engine provide forward momentum.
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

Minni I think you are not understanding this though experiment. I encourage discussion not an argument.

A vertical mast w/ sail when sailing close to the wind... generates a small vector more or less forward. The keel resists heel and making way to leeward. The sum of the vectors allows the boat to move almost perpendicular the the front edge of the sail. This is possible because lift is created by the sail form and the lift is normal to the surface of the sail with all the sideways forces countered by the hull and keel. If the rig was mounted on a flat raft it would sail sidways I believe... if it didn't tip over.

If the mast and sail and boom are rotated to horizontal... looking at the force vectors... they would be mostly up and some forward. This is how a plane's wing lifts the plane. But to fly and get lift you need adequate wind speed. The lift is enough to overcome gravity. Planes move forward using props or jet thrust... and that creates apparent wind!

A glider we know will not take off sitting on the runway facing the wind. It needs to be towed to get apparent wind and lift... and it has some momentum and being light they are able to fly... as long as their is enough apparent wind.

The horizontal mast is no different. It needs a fair amount of apparent wind to over come momentum. However if there is enough apparent wind AND the sail is properly trimmed there would be a forward component and no lee component.

Yes or no?

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Re: sailing past close hauled?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post
Your analogy to an airplane doesn't work. On an airplane, the wing provides lift, not forward momentum. The propeller and engine provide forward momentum.
correct...but on a glider there is no prop or engine... yet the plane moves forward... it needs to be towed to get up apparent wind speed so it can lift off and it also give it initial forward motion. But if there were no forward motion there would be no apparent wind and it would drop from the sky.

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