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post #61 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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how does it get up the hill in the first place?
A glider gets uphill in the first place because it's towed by an airplane with a motor.
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post #62 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
You're starting to follow my point. On your horizontal wing sail, directly into the wind, the luff would be slightly higher than the leach, ie the cord indicating the leading edge is slightly higher than the trailing edge, relative to the forward vector of the boat. This is exactly the opposite of a vertical sail on a close haul. Sketch them out. The perpendicular of the cord is pointing aft, not forward like a sail.
But regardless you can develop a forward vector. It may not be enough to overcome friction... but it does in a sloop rig... which is at most 30 off the eye of the wind.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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post #63 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
But regardless you can develop a forward vector. It may not be enough to overcome friction... but it does in a sloop rig... which is at most 30 off the eye of the wind.
You really need to sketch out the cord vs forward direction of the boat. The perpendicular to the cord of a vertical sail is forward of the beam in all points of sail up to close hauled. In your theoretical horizontal wing, directly into the wind, it's not. Same would be the case for a vertical sail, if it could magically hold shape, with the boat pointed directly into the wind.


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post #64 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

Ok

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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post #65 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

No Sanadero, you are wrong. The plane descends - this is where the energy for forward motion comes from. The wing actually produces a horizontal vector backwards, in the form of drag.

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post #66 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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how does it get up the hill in the first place?
It must use a perpetual motion engine of some type. Got me there.
Im being sarcastic. Sorry. But this thread is sort of going off the rails with crazy theories and misunderstanding of how stuff works.

Last edited by CrispyCringle; 02-18-2019 at 11:45 AM.
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post #67 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

I usually apply the Dunning Kruger Effect while attending my morning entertainment of SN.
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post #68 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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Originally Posted by Capt Len View Post
I usually apply the Dunning Kruger Effect while attending my morning entertainment of SN.

We don't do that on Sailnet.

Believe it.

No one here is an idiot.


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post #69 of 85 Old 02-18-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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I usually apply the Dunning Kruger Effect while attending my morning entertainment of SN.
My wife and I saw a production of Shakespeare's "As You Like It" on Saturday night, which includes Touchstone's line:

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.


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post #70 of 85 Old 02-18-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: sailing past close hulled?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I think of the sideways vector being countered by the keel, not summed, leaving the forward vector to propel the boat. Some keels do a better job of this countering and have less leeway, as a result.

The OP might think of these vectors this way. As you come up on the wind, the sail must be moved closer to the center of the boat. This makes the sideways vector grow and the forward vector decline (also the reason for heeling). Even if you could maintain sail shape right up to dead on the wind (which of course you can't), you would only have side vector and no forward vector. Certainly, as you even approach this mythical point of sail, the forward vector diminishes to the point that it won't overcome the friction of the hull anyway.
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Originally Posted by CrispyCringle View Post
The simplest way I can explain this is, the lift vector produced by the sail only really points in one direction, roughly leaning a little forward of perpendicular to the boom when into the wind. Most points of sail are using only a fraction, or component of that lift. You cant just point the boat straight into the wind and pull the boom over past center because then the lift vector now has a component pulling you in reverse of the direction you want to go. There is no forward component left to give.

As stated by Minnewaska, then the resultant vectors gives no forward motion as you point the boat higher even if the sail is kept in trim, vectors cancel out and the forward vector is about zero. All you have is side vectors. Thank you, and the picture is what I was trying to describe; a boat point dead into the wind, but the sail still trimmed way past the center of the boat to prevent stall (still creating lift). All you would have left is sideways motion, not forward. Thanks again.

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