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post #71 of 85 Old 02-19-2019
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Re: sailing past close hulled?

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Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
My point was that this topic should be addressed in ASA 101 as part of the lecture and on the water exercises. In fact, there are at least two ASA test questions on the ASA 101 test (64 and 99) that cover the term "close hauled." Your signature file suggests that you have attended 101, 103 and 104. By mentioning the specific course, you could refer to the book that you should have received as part of ASA 101, or your notes - if you have any. When I teach 101 I talk about this topic and introduce Bernoulli's principle and the Coanda effect. The fact that you have mis-spelled the term and are asking questions that should be covered in class suggests that you do not have a firm grasp of this topic.

Therefore, I am left to conclude that either: a) it wasn't covered, and the school did a poor job - this is one of the reasons why I do not like 1-week "Fast-Track" courses, b) it was covered and you didn't get it -- this is another reason why I do not like 1-week "Fast-Track" courses, c) your signature is overstating your credentials.

This is the internet - you are going to get some snark, and you should be able to deal with it, or you should go read a book in a corner. The guys over at SailingAnarchy would have chewed you up and spit you out if you posted this over there (and it would have been hillarious to the rest of us ).

Most of the people on SailNet try to help others when we can. Mark's post above is a particularly good one, and echoes the article that I linked to when I mentioned the wingsail in my earlier post above. Unlike when I teach, we aren't paid to do this, and we can therefore pick and choose whom we wish to share our experience with. It is not a matter of being "snobby," it is a matter of trying to help those that are willing to learn, and are appreciatve of our effort. Your post #6 suggests that you've got your panties in a twist, so I'll offend you no more with my experience / advice. Welcome to "the list"
I had quit reading this thread after a couple replies. I was surprised to see still going. So I dove back in. This post made me stop and remember my first lesson

eherlihy - I see you are an extremely well-qualified sailor, So I have ask when did you take 101?

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post #72 of 85 Old 02-19-2019
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Re: sailing past close hulled?

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Originally Posted by JoCoSailor View Post
I had quit reading this thread after a couple replies. I was surprised to see still going. So I dove back in. This post made me stop and remember my first lesson

eherlihy - I see you are an extremely well-qualified sailor, So I have ask when did you take 101?
I hope Eherlihy does not mind me answering this, he is an ASA instructor so he teaches 101 on a regular basis.

Oddly, I only took ASA 101, 102 and 103 last year. Although I started sailing in 1961, and have sailed pretty much ever since, I took the courses since I wanted to get an ICC so that I could sail in Europe. I was surprised at what a well produced course it is. Even before taking the course, I had used either the USSailing or ASA text basic sailing books to teach people to sail since both do a great job balancing what is presented between giving enough information to be accurate with not having too much detail and burying a new sailor in jargon and technicalities. Unfortunately, my failure as a teacher is a tendency to be too technical so I very much appreciate the way these courses are written.
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post #73 of 85 Old 02-19-2019
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Re: sailing past close hulled?

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I hope Eherlihy does not mind me answering this, he is an ASA instructor so he teaches 101 on a regular basis.

Oddly, I only took ASA 101, 102 and 103 last year. Although I started sailing in 1961, and have sailed pretty much ever since, I took the courses since I wanted to get an ICC so that I could sail in Europe. I was surprised at what a well produced course it is. Even before taking the course, I had used either the USSailing or ASA text basic sailing books to teach people to sail since both do a great job balancing what is presented between giving enough information to be accurate with not having too much detail and burying a new sailor in jargon and technicalities. Unfortunately, my failure as a teacher is a tendency to be too technical so I very much appreciate the way these courses are written.
Thanks Jeff!

Yes, I read his sig and saw he's also a USCG Licensed Captain. I' sure he's more than qualified to support his post. I was more curious to see how/when he learned to sail. I suspect like you he's sailed a large portion of his life

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Re: sailing past close hulled?

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Originally Posted by JoCoSailor View Post
Thanks Jeff!

Yes, I read his sig and saw he's also a USCG Licensed Captain. I' sure he's more than qualified to support his post. I was more curious to see how/when he learned to sail. I suspect like you he's sailed a large portion of his life
Its interesting, I have taught a lot of people to sail during my life. I love doing it. But it is a lot of responsibility and one of the big challenges is to remain sensitive to the fact that there are so many things that become obvious after you sail for a while that are either not readily apparent or worse yet, counter intuitive to a person who is just learning to sail. Its hard to put yourself in a beginner's shoes since it is easy to forget what it was like to learn to sail when it was something brand new, and it becomes especially difficult to think like a beginner when sailing is something that you have done for a lifetime. But I try very hard when I am teaching to pay attention to the questions being asked, how the person is doing things, or what they are saying so I can better understand what they are thinking. And no matter what the person says, or does, or asks, I make a point of remaining diplomatic, and respectful. Because the reality is that most of us did not learn this on our own and over time a whole lot of people were generous enough to pass along useful information along the way. The good news about sailing is that something always happens that will keep even us old salts humble.

Jeff
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post #75 of 85 Old 02-19-2019
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Re: sailing past close hulled?

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Its interesting, I have taught a lot of people to sail during my life. I love doing it. But it is a lot of responsibility and one of the big challenges is to remain sensitive to the fact that there are so many things that become obvious after you sail for a while that are either not readily apparent or worse yet, counter intuitive to a person who is just learning to sail. Its hard to put yourself in a beginner's shoes since it is easy to forget what it was like to learn to sail when it was something brand new, especially when it is something that you have done for a lifetime. But I try very hard when I am teaching to pay attention to the questions and how the person is doing things or what they are saying so I can better understand what they are thinking. And no matter what the person says, or does, or asks, I make a point of remaining diplomatic, and respectful. Because the reality is that most of us did not learn this on our own and over time a whole lot of people were generous enough to pass along useful information along the way. The good news about sailing is that something always happens that will keep even us old salt humble.

Jeff
Jeff, you are amazing. I feel like you are reading my mind.

Not sure I'd call what I do teaching, However, our club puts on classes for beginning sailors. I volunteered to be one of the helpers that goes out with students on sunfish until they are ready to go out by themselves. I guess I did okay as they now have me helping with our sailing II class. I love what do too.

I have to say after what I've learned from the old salts in our club, other classes, reading, and youtube. I owe any success I've had in helping students. To the fact that I clearly recall what cerebral overload learning to sail was.

Also, I've helped enough to see that in general the older you are when you first start. The more of an overload it is. We all learn at different rates, retain different things. The fact that someone who has been through 3 or 4 classes. Now chooses to circle back around and focus on, what others may have comprehended in 101. Should be applauded not chided

Lew
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

It's very difficult to teach a skill.
How do I ride a bike? Jump on and peddle.

Sailing is such a difficult series of skills that by the time we learn them we have forgotten the How in it. Eg: what yo do with a tiller on Lee Ho. My body just does it. Ivm not even sure I can think of what I do let alone teach someone else. Probably just better to yell at a student: "Do it, just do it."

I admire those that can explain what I can merely do.


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Re: sailing past close hauled?

I think people intuitively understand downwind sailing.... they have real world experience with the wind catching an umbrella and pulling it away from them. And so you want the sails to "catch" the most wind... a concept anyone can grasp.

Upwind is teaching what appears to be a miracle. First of course the boat is not pushed by the wind... but pulled by it... or a pressure differential created by the sail (shape) trim. And here the sail work like a plane's wing... something which is a mystery to most people.

If you can get someone to understand how upwind sailing works... you can then go on to all the other topics... like reefing, leeway... what a keel does, tacking, gybing, rules of the road, navigation, names of things and so on. Anchoring, mooring, and docking though not sailing are intrinsic to all boats... gotta learn some of this too.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

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I doubt that anyone can explain what you can merely do.
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post #79 of 85 Old 02-21-2019
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Re: sailing past close hauled?

@JoCoSailor - my background is that I took sailing for two years on the town lake in O'day Sprites as a kid. My mom signed me up to get me out of the house, and to stay out of trouble. The instructor was a sixteen year old girl that used to bark instructions at us from a rowboat. "You're luffing" she'd yell. "You're ugly" we'd yell back. I was a pre-teenage kid, and there was no chance that my family would ever get a sailboat, so I failed the written (name this part of the boat, name this point of sail, name this manuver) and sailing portion of the course - two years in a row!

For the sailing portion of the assessment each student would be rowed out to a boat alone, have to rig it, and have to singlehand the boat off the mooring, around a mark, and back to the mooring, pick up the mooring and de-rig the boat. Tiller in one hand, mainsheet in the other, and jib sheet between your toes! We would start about two minuites apart (the time that it took to drop off one kid and row to the next boat), and we were supposed to sail in a line. But I was impatient, and failed for passing other boats. Also I came in too hot for the mooring pickup and had to go around again (fail). These were not ASA or US/Sailing sanctioned lessons. This was 1970 and it was just a teenager teaching pre-teens, like many sailing clubs do today.

Thirty five years later, I was trying to get to know my 14-year old step-son better, so I enrolled both of us in ASA lessons in Boston Harbor. My son liked it, but I found that I loved it. My work at the time (computer networking sales and training) had me traveling a lot, and my doctor had me wearing a halter monitor because he was concerned about my health. I found that as soon as we would drop the mooring painter, any thoughts or stress from work would simply fade away. My doctor looked at the report from the monitor and asked "What did you do at one-o'clock yesterday?" I told him that I was probably raising the sail on a CAL 33. He replied that he could see the physical activity, and after that my heart rate was textbook perfect. "Keep doing that" he said. My son stopped after 101, but I continued on through 103, 104, 105 and 106. This was in 2005-2006.

I bought a boat after a long search (documented in ancient posts SailNet) in 2010. I earned my OUPV and became an instructor in 2013.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I have been out sailing with a friend in his O'day 192 on the Peace River for the past two days.
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post #80 of 85 Old 02-22-2019
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Okay. Here's the answer.
Remember the classic example of how a wing works they teach in elementary school, Bernoulli effect and all that (they only still teach that in the US, btw)? Well it's complete BS. Look it up, people!
Modern wings are not flat-bottomed, they're closer to symmetrical, like a teardrop. And the bottom surface does not move horizontally to the ground, the entire wing is inclined slightly upwards.
This way you generate lift from both surfaces by flow turning.
Same concept with a sail, except you only have one part of the airfoil, the top surface of the wing. Plus, the damn thing is flexible as heck. Which royally sucks.
With only having the top surface, and being flexible, it has to receive smooth airflow inside the curve to maintain its shape. So the sail itself cannot be turned so far into the wind that it loses interior surface air pressure, thus losing its shape.
Now. Take a curved piece of paper and a pencil. If the pencil is your boat pointing directly upwind, you have to turn the sail so that the entire inside surface gets airflow.
So, since the wind is pushing on the inside of the sail and pulling on the outside of the sail, look at your pencil, which way will it move? Backwards!
Now, play with the angle of the pencil and the angle of the curved paper until you get a relationship that looks like the push and pull on the sail, when counteracted by the resistance of the keel, will move your boat forward instead of backwards or sideways. That gives you a general idea of what's going on on the water. And yea, it's something like 30 degrees-ish to the wind.
And of course it's a lot more complicated than that! This is pencil and paper on table, not boat and wind in water, but you get the basic idea this way.
And, the only sailing 101 class I'm aware of is sitting in a boat, looking at the world, and trying figuring it all out. Of course, sailing 201 is ignoring all the rude dingusses who think they're better than everybody else.

PS- and if you want to know which came first, the chicken or the egg, I've got a really good answer for that, too...
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