Sewing Machine onboard... Which one? - Page 8 - SailNet Community
 15Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #71 of 79 Old 02-04-2016
Old enough to know better
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Beacon, NY
Posts: 4,335
Thanks: 30
Thanked 187 Times in 182 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
So here is a picture from the "Sewstrong" :


And here is the same part on the LSZ version 2 :



Note how much more substantial it is, especially the "fork" that hangs down in the middle of the part. Also note the flaw in the casting on the right of the Sewstrong part. I believe that the fork is what used to break on the Version 1, and Sailrite took to reinforcing them all for a while by welding a clamp to it! No reinforcement on the Sewstrong part, so it will eventually snap,

Sailrite have a video where the various version 1 and 2 parts are compared, and this is one of them. The Sewstrong part is definitely the version 1, which makes it fairly certain it's from the low-quality Taiwan factory.

"Getting Stronger All The Time"?
So they basically are saying we sold thousands of people a crap machine for years, but don't worry now we sell the only good one. I imagine the "strong sew" and the "Reliable" machines are the same strength as the older ones and will be fine for recreational use. It is not like they recalled all there V1 machines because they were dangerously weak like they are kind of backhandedly saying in there video comparing parts. I think it may well be that they found a cheaper supplier China and are upset that there old supplier is still making the machines with all the tooling they invested in to make it for sailrite. Are the V2 stronger, sure I bet they are, but it is not like the V1 machines are falling apart sewing there first sail cover. It is not like they invented the sewing machine.

1976 C&C 33
Project boat, lots of work to be done!
miatapaul is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #72 of 79 Old 02-04-2016
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 3,183
Thanks: 9
Thanked 92 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

"So they basically are saying we sold thousands of people a crap machine for years". That's rather an ingenuous twist on the facts. What they are saying is that over the years they have been improving the product, learning from what went wrong, resulting in a better product. That, and customer support, is what separates the LSZ-1 from the clones.

If you took the trouble to read this article, you'd see that the reason for looking for a new supplier in China was the poor quality of parts from the Taiwan factory, and their lack of receptivity to improvement.

http://www.sailrite.com/Ultrafeed-History

I think that one point you are missing is that the quality of tooling changes with time, as it wears out. It is likely that the tooling was in a good state for early LSZ-1s, became worn later on (the article says as much - they noticed increasing quality problems) forcing the move to China, and now is in an even worse state. If the tooling wasn't good enough several years ago, what state is it in now?

Finally, my picture shows that the Taiwan factory is NOT using the version 2 tooling.

My point is not that some of the clones aren't good enough for some purposes. It is to refute claims that the clones are as good as the real thing, for a lower price. You get what you pay for, in general at least.

Bristol 31.1, San Francisco Bay

Last edited by MarkSF; 02-04-2016 at 03:55 PM.
MarkSF is offline  
post #73 of 79 Old 02-04-2016
Old enough to know better
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Beacon, NY
Posts: 4,335
Thanks: 30
Thanked 187 Times in 182 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
"So they basically are saying we sold thousands of people a crap machine for years". That's rather an ingenuous twist on the facts. What they are saying is that over the years they have been improving the product, learning from what went wrong, resulting in a better product. That, and customer support, is what separates the LSZ-1 from the clones.

If you took the trouble to read this article, you'd see that the reason for looking for a new supplier in China was the poor quality of parts from the Taiwan factory, and their lack of receptivity to improvement.

Ultrafeed Sewing Machine History

I think that one point you are missing is that the quality of tooling changes with time, as it wears out. It is likely that the tooling was in a good state for early LSZ-1s, became worn later on (the article says as much - they noticed increasing quality problems) forcing the move to China, and now is in an even worse state. If the tooling wasn't good enough several years ago, what state is it in now?

Finally, my picture shows that the Taiwan factory is NOT using the version 2 tooling.

My point is not that some of the clones aren't good enough for some purposes. It is to refute claims that the clones are as good as the real thing, for a lower price. You get what you pay for, in general at least.
I read the article and I understand marketing speak when I see it. The real issue is it seems they were doing no quality assurance till things got to the US. It is too late by then so they are saying they were selling a sub par machine. Why didn't they know they were using such poor tooling till the "arrived" at the factory. This is the biggest reason why so many companies get into trouble when offshoring there production, they think the contractors will do the right thing. That story seems to me to make no sense at all. You don't just show up in China, not speaking the language and end up with a good relationship with a manufacturer. So are they trusting the new manufacturer to stay within specs? Sounds to me like the story you read on a Geridano's Menu in Chicago, about how it was there grandmothers recipe from Italy that is used in the pizza, only problem is it is a fully Greek owned company and there was never an Italian Grandmother. So I am sure they already had plans to change to another supplier and decided to "prove" they had cause.

Also you can't tell the strength of a part by looking at a picture. You can plate and polish pot-metal to make it look great, but it still has no strength even if twice the thickness, while on the other hand you can have a quality alloy that is not finished as nice that will be much stronger. I can't see that the "copy's" aren't up to casual use as described in the OP. Is the SailRite machine stronger, and better sure but again I think the copy is likely good enough for 99.9% of a sailor's use. I just don't buy that whole story as being gospel. I doubt the copy market has any effect on SailRite business either, as most looking for a cheaper unit will likely go for a used machine before ponying up for a new machine.

Lots of tooling out there that has been in use for many more years than the LSZ has been in existence, I don't buy the tooling was worn for such a low production item.
MastUndSchotbruch likes this.

1976 C&C 33
Project boat, lots of work to be done!
miatapaul is offline  
 
post #74 of 79 Old 02-04-2016
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 3,183
Thanks: 9
Thanked 92 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

I believe that the part in question is both beefed up where it used to break, AND made of a better alloy. Do you have any basis for your implication that the Sewstrong is using a better alloy than the Sailrite?

Bristol 31.1, San Francisco Bay
MarkSF is offline  
post #75 of 79 Old 02-04-2016
Old enough to know better
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Beacon, NY
Posts: 4,335
Thanks: 30
Thanked 187 Times in 182 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
I believe that the part in question is both beefed up where it used to break, AND made of a better alloy. Do you have any basis for your implication that the Sewstrong is using a better alloy than the Sailrite?
No, just more that I don't really think the story they tell seems realistic. I do agree that the sailrite machine is likely a better machine, but at close to twice the price it well should be. I think there are plenty of the V1 machines out there being used as I see them fairly frequently on eBay so I doubt they are ticking time bombs. Sailrite service is good too, so I don't doubt that either but again for twice the price they should be. I have seen the Reliable Barracuda being sold by sewing machine shops so quality service should be there as well. The old tooling just makes no sense either as there are companies running on hundred year old tooling and still fine.

Sew the real question (nice pun!) is are you better off with a used older machine with no warranty or support or a new Sew Strong or Reliable if your budget is topped out at $4-500?

1976 C&C 33
Project boat, lots of work to be done!
miatapaul is offline  
post #76 of 79 Old 05-20-2016
Senior Member
 
Andrew65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 401
Thanks: 12
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TQA View Post
Almost any of the metal armature Pfaff machines will do a good job. I got mine from a Goodwill store for $25 a few years ago Yes it was a steal.

I have used a Janome HD1000 and it did the job too.
Which Pfaff machines are you talking about? I have a 332.
Andrew65 is offline  
post #77 of 79 Old 05-20-2016
TQA
Bombay Explorer 44
 
TQA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,619
Thanks: 0
Thanked 132 Times in 128 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew65 View Post
Which Pfaff machines are you talking about? I have a 332.
It was a 130 with a walking foot.
TQA is offline  
post #78 of 79 Old 05-21-2016
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

I have a hand-cranked Vickers machine (made in about 1930, similar to the Singers of the same era) that I bought on eBay for ~30USD (~20GBP) for boat related repairs. I has already saved me several hundred GBP in canvas repairs.

Owen
Fugam is offline  
post #79 of 79 Old 11-20-2016 Thread Starter
Member
 
Cande's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Ithaca, NY, Cayuga Lake
Posts: 57
Thanks: 16
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 5
 
Dock
Re: Sewing Machine onboard... Which one?

Stories about how someone finds their boat are, in my opinion, akin to stories couples tell of how they got together: Personal, individual and a joy to share. My husband and I got together in 2000-2001, he was a sailor, I had spent my life enjoying watersports and boating of all kinds, with the exception of sailing. He had sold his last 30' or so boat in the mid-90s. But together we decided to look for a sailboat. I wanted to learn.
A friend asked if we would put a mooring in front of our lakehouse on Cayuga Lake, so that he could keep a boat there that he wanted to buy, an old Ranger. In exchange, we could use the boat whenever we wished. None of us did the amount of sailing we wanted but we loved looking at the boat happily bobbing off our shore. Made us want our own boat even more.
Whenever we took long trips by car we checked to see if there were boats we might want to look at around Cleveland, Erie, and down the east coast. On a trip to The Keys we bought a Precision 18. That was all I needed to get hooked. We looked harder but didn't find anything that "spoke to us."
We like to walk the marina docks a few minutes from our house, and one day saw a newly docked J37 on the main dock. Wow. We BOTH saw that it was the most incredible boat (except for a Great Lakes Cruiser) in the marina. We admired it every evening when we walked.
One night, walking after a trip out to the midwest, we were walking the docks and a "For Sale" sign was on the boat. We called. No answer. Few hours later, again, no answer. Once again before bed we tried. The owner answered saying he was showing the boat the next morning at 10:00. We asked to see it at 9:00 and prepared a Bill of Sale before hitting the sack.
The deal was done by 10:00.
I know I'm starting to sail "late" but I spent last winter reading, practicing knots, learning about how things work, getting personal gear (my own this and that) and trying to increase my strength (I wanted to be able to raise the main on my own). We got a new mainsail, installed lazy Jacks, and a new Tides Sailtrack system. Made some repairs, got a new gib halyard. In truth we haven't taken the boat out just the two of us. But we'll get there next summer.
Cande is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sewing machine? canucksailorguy General Discussion (sailing related) 52 09-24-2012 12:11 PM
Looking for sewing machine ambianceack Boat Review and Purchase Forum 2 05-30-2012 11:40 AM
Sewing machine or ???? poopdeckpappy Gear & Maintenance 8 04-06-2011 06:22 PM
Sewing Machine Dmarina General Discussion (sailing related) 1 07-21-2008 05:09 PM
sewing machine svdragonseeker Living Aboard 5 04-22-2002 02:53 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome