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post #21 of 32 Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

Well said Mark and thanks.

Independent of anyoneís opinion here thereís reality. Independent of anyoneís opinion here thereís best practices which are codified to some extent by various countries and agencies.

Building standards are building standards. Best practices in repair are best practices. If you want to make it an us and them argument you have your head up your butt. But you remain blind to reality.

Reality. Personally know a Cherubini 44. Itís was on the rocks (huge sea wall rocks) and pounded for 3 days due to a hurricane. Brought to NJ and repaired. Now suitable for a RTW voyage. Boat is over four decades old. Know beautiful high tech flyers who have caught their keels at below hull speed. Now trashed and not even suitable for day sailing. Thereís no inference about cost nor age. Thereís only reality.

The boats under discussion (With a minute number of exceptions) due to nature of construction and nature of damage and extent of damage and possibility of hidden damage are unrepairable at reasonable costs to a condition that would allow one to be certain they could safely execute their intended future use. Thatís reality. Doesnít matter who is stating that fact. Only exception is if a well qualified, non biased surveyor said otherwise.

s/v Hippocampus
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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

I havenít been to the affected area, in the Bahamas but you act like because you were in the belly of the beast you have some special knowledge here. Fact is I spent lots of time in a similar situation when Sandy came through the northeast. So any argument that you had to be there , which you use frequently kind of goes away. What do pirates have to do with it.

I saw boats piled on top of each other in corners of marinas and utter devastation. It was not only frightening but amazing of the sheer power of Mother Nature.

Similar situation where most of the boats were not salvageable. Similar situation where profiteers were present to rip people off, similar situation where there were boats with extensive damage , but with sweat equity could be
Brought back. MOST could not of course , and they went to the landfill.

The issue is very straightforward Is the boat repairable . That is a specific issue with each boat. You canít judge that from your cockpit in front of you computer drinking a mai tai.

The gentlemen in the video obviously thought this boat amongst the many destroyed could . Invested personal money and most importantly sweat equity to bring back a model of boat he never would have been able to afford otherwise. I have no issue with that. In fact itís admirable that he is putting in the work, not just forking dollars over to have someone else do it.

You may want To argue is techniques and honeycomb vs balsa but the sweeping statements made that the balsa repairs were unsafe and dangerous just donít settle. When they first got this particular boat and sailed it out of the danger zone they made temp repairs. Now they are going back to make permanent repairs to make it seaworthy. Obviously it is a low budget operation. They are using materials on hand and ones they can afford. They arenít daddy big bucks people. They seem to have a plan, a direction, their work which they are doing themselves seeks adequate , course not as good as money can buy, but they donít have that money.

Maybe there is a lot of profiteering taking place, but to cast such a wide net on everyone is an untruth.

It is simple. Fixing a wrecked otherwise boat they never would have been able to afford. People do that all the time. Especially here on SN. Sweat equity replacing money is what it is and Iím all for it.

It is up to the person doing it to have the smarts to weigh the options. It is their decision, their money, their sweat equity to make any of the small number of the boats reclaimed whole again. They should be applauded not ridiculed on their attempts to do it. Itís a free market. Let the buyer beware. These donít seem like uneducated buyers, just hands on trying to reclaim a vessel.
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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Think the issue with boats that extensively damaged is you donít know the entire extent of the damage. GRP , particularly cored glass, can look fine but have lost much of its structural strength. Like going from woven to chopper gun. A bit of gelcoat they look the same.
Repetitive flexing, even at the micro level, can cause shear forces cutting the fibers, and causing micro fractures in the resin or epoxy. Bonding materials, sealants and fasteners are also fatigued and often without evidence of visual damage.
Although ultrasound and other techniques may disclose macro damage extent of fatigue to structure and fittings may not be totally apparent. To repair such a boat and then go do blue water is to take your life in your hands. Believe it would take a very knowledgeable owner and surveyor extensive time to asses damage and even then may miss the one thing that bites you in the butt on passage.
No thanks.
This is very well said. One can make a boat float again, even look good again, but it would be near impossible to fully assess the kind of transmitted damage you canít see. The boat in the vid took a hit so hard, it punched a big hole through the side of a GRP boat. I bet most canít really imagine the kind of force that takes. Try swinging a sledge hammer at the topside of an old scrap boat and see if you can do much more than severely crack the gel coat. That boat took impact shock load to every stinger, rib, chainplate, etc, in ways they were not engineered to endure and no visual inspection could ever detect.

They paid $150k for it, so it must have at least looked better than most. Based on the amount of labor they disclosed, just to replace core material, not yet topcoat to look good, there is no way it could be done economically, without sweat equity. Still, they canít know they are addressing more than the obvious.

My bigger concern for them, is what they end up with. A once severely damaged, flooded, hurricane boat that has been repaired by sweat equity. They may convinced themselves theyíve done a good job, but how would they convince another to part with 6 figures.

Iím sure neither you, me or anyone wishes them anything but the best of luck. Thatís not mutually exclusive from it being assessed a foolhardy endeavor.


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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

The negativity is astounding about someone trying to repair a very damaged hurricane boat. The majority can be and of course were total losses. Note that there are only hypothetical inferences as no one on here who has posted the negativity has physically seen or touched the boat in the video. Yet the naysayers have come to their conclusion that 1 - they are being unsafe in even taking on the project 2- they are wasting their money 3- something negative will happen after they repair it. One comment even states that it is not possible to repair a large hole . Generalizations all made from the computer chair .

How do you know they donít have a surveyor watching their work. It kind of infers that someone is paying attention to their work.?

How do you know how much they have invested in this? Compared to how much this boat would cost new? The would not even be looking at this boat new.

Do any of the major negative posters has any real physical experience repairing boats with this kind of damage.
Or would they even consider taking on a project.

Donít let them confuse you with repairing a 4 decade old boat....not relevant.

I have respect for some one who is willing to invest their own sweat equity and money into a damaged recent boat to bring it back rather than throw it on the heap. They are taking advantage of the opportunity of finding a reasonable damaged boat in a sea of badly damaged boats to improve their own boating situations.

Yes there are obstacles, but instead of encouraging them, it becomes a negative diatribe or scare from some boaters on here, with no real knowledge of what they are truly Specifically are facing. No one is giving them a free ride here. No go fund me page. We should encourage sailors and people like this.

I am going to take a positive approach here and follow their progress and hope they continue on the positive arc they are doing.
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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Do any of the major negative posters has any real physical experience repairing boats with this kind of damage.
Or would they even consider taking on a project.
I do.
I wouldn't.

Lagoon 450 charter version of this age are selling for $300-350K. He paid about 1/2 of this for a damaged boat requiring significant work. Luckily he has a rig because that is rare for these hurricane boats. His sails are probably needing replacement, but that is a guess. If it was sunk, the electrical system is a demon waiting to bite, and the interior will be an ongoing challenge wrt mold, stains, etc. Same with the engines.

So he has a $100-150k financial delta to bring this boat up to the exact condition that others of this type are selling for, and still consider it a good deal if he doesn't mind or count all of the labor and time he puts into it. And that is right now - the price differential will decrease as the years go on and the large numbers of this model manufactured flood the market.

The question is, is that financial delta large enough, or would it have been a much better deal simply buying an undamaged one on the market?

I guess it remains to be seen as he goes along.

Did you see the parts of the video where he thought he had made complete repairs to a section only to find that the damage had further traveled past what he thought was good hull? This is to be expected, and is an example of what some here are pointing out about this type of work.

Since we are all amateurs or computer chair experts to you - did you read boatpoker's link?

I wish the guy well. In earlier posts, I was describing other hurricane damaged boats and other people taking on these projects, which I had personal experience with. I thought this was obvious by the context, but you seem to want to pin my observations as being made only on this particular person and boat. I've actually not commented on that at all other to say woof-that's a lot of work.

Mark
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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I do.
I wouldn't.

Lagoon 450 charter version of this age are selling for $300-350K. He paid about 1/2 of this for a damaged boat requiring significant work. Luckily he has a rig because that is rare for these hurricane boats. His sails are probably needing replacement, but that is a guess. If it was sunk, the electrical system is a demon waiting to bite, and the interior will be an ongoing challenge wrt mold, stains, etc. Same with the engines.

So he has a $100-150k financial delta to bring this boat up to the exact condition that others of this type are selling for, and still consider it a good deal if he doesn't mind or count all of the labor and time he puts into it. And that is right now - the price differential will decrease as the years go on and the large numbers of this model manufactured flood the market.

The question is, is that financial delta large enough, or would it have been a much better deal simply buying an undamaged one on the market?

I guess it remains to be seen as he goes along.

Did you see the parts of the video where he thought he had made complete repairs to a section only to find that the damage had further traveled past what he thought was good hull? This is to be expected, and is an example of what some here are pointing out about this type of work.

Since we are all amateurs or computer chair experts to you - did you read boatpoker's link?

I wish the guy well. In earlier posts, I was describing other hurricane damaged boats and other people taking on these projects, which I had personal experience with. I thought this was obvious by the context, but you seem to want to pin my observations as being made only on this particular person and boat. I've actually not commented on that at all other to say woof-that's a lot of work.

Mark
I am an amateur.....but at least I have no trouble admitting it.

The only thing I am not an amateur in is my profession. I would never even think of making what appears to be factual statements . Apparently some on here are experts on so many things I am amazed.

No I never attributed you to the statements. In fact you have been very measured and realstic😄


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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I would never even think of making what appears to be factual statements . Apparently some on here are experts on so many things I am amazed.
While many of us may not be experts in an area, that doesn't mean we don't have extensive experience in that area.

Even several areas. However, there are many more areas that I have no experience in/with, and that is why you don't see me post in those threads. Go count the threads I don't post in, and compare with the threads I offer experience in. You will find I am actually experienced in very few things.

For example, I have extensive experience working in boat structural fiberglass and composite structures, so I can make at least general observations on these subjects based on knowledge and experience - if not offer a learned opinion. I was physically inspecting the boats I was discussing in Antigua.

I also own a catamaran the same size as the one in the video and the ones I was discussing in Antigua, so I can talk with experience on how much things cost for these types of boats, the ongoing expenses and maintenance, and the things that will catch one unawares in the future.

I'll bet you could offer some pretty knowledgable advice on your type/model of boat.

Mark

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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

Donít recall anyone degrading balsa. Itís a great product. Very low weight, very stiff, and very strong in one axis. I bought a boat with wet decks. An area around the mast and a second area at the edge of a butterfly hatch. It was repaired and gave me good service for 6 years including 2 Marion-Bermudas.

Seems thereís more agreement than disagreement on this thread. End of the day no one here can judge if these specific people made a bad decision without the prerepair survey or buyers assessment in hand. No one can judge the buyers assessment without detailed knowledge of them. Beyond that itís a pissing contest.

I did offer an opinion. Thereís multiple difficulties with balsa. Youíre dependent on initial construction which you donít know when buying a boat new/old, pristine/damaged. Was it wetted out correctly? Are there voids? What was done around places it was pierced? Moisture meters have their own difficulties both with their design and even more with technique of use. Multiple uncertainties exist unless you are extremely sophisticated or have an usually good surveyor. Maybe these people fall in this category. I donít know.

I do know several friends who lost their boats while on the hard in the Caribbean. One in particular actually looked to be fairly intact. I surprisinged it was concerned totaled until surveyor report was made available to me.

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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

Here's an update. They got the hull sealed up "only five more weeks of work". Nice to have friends who will work for nothing in the Guatemalan heat. IMO It's a young man's game. But, good for them.

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Re: So you want to buy a Hurricane damaged boat

Here's an update. They got the hull sealed up "only five more weeks of work". Nice to have friends who will work for nothing in the Guatemalan heat. IMO It's a young man's game. But, good for them.

Mike
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