Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay - Page 2 - SailNet Community
 14Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 4,488
Thanks: 2
Thanked 113 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Annual bottom painting is very expensive. It's not only the ridiculous cost of the paints, but the haul and block, labor and supplies. Bottom jobs can cost thousands of dollars when you add in all the costs

Depending on where you keep the boat and how much it's used and how fast it goes you may find the bottom gets all manner of growth regardless of whatever you paint on. Your only option is to dive and scrape off the growth...and unless you do it yourself... another expense. And this doesn't even consider how harmful bottom paint can be the the water as it leaches off.

My experience, where I sail and how I use the boat and trying several different paints was that they don't do the expected job... or well enough I suppose.

My thinking has evolved to using an inexpensive hard paint and employ divers regularly to inspect and clean your bottom. Regular diving will likely save you lots of money. Racers are diving their bottoms because they need every .1 of a knot of speed. Dinks left in the water become disasters... transducers fouled and thru hull clogged.

Bottom paint is an unreliable solution to marine growth.

Why not employ divers and go "green" in the blue!
capta likes this.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it

Last edited by SanderO; 01-25-2020 at 08:13 AM.
SanderO is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
Master Mariner
 
capta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: somewhere south of civilization
Posts: 7,810
Thanks: 167
Thanked 413 Times in 401 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
employ divers regularly to inspect and clean your bottom. Regular diving will likely save you lots of money.
We got around this reoccurring expense by purchasing a 12 vdc 'deck snorkel' by Sea Breathe. It was a pretty hefty outlay originally, but it has paid for itself many times over. It's also valuable for inspecting/working on the bottom and running gear. We can also carry it and a battery in the Zodiac and do some diving for fun. My biggest regret was getting a single unit instead of a double one, but at the time I purchased it, I never in my wildest dreams expected to have a 'bestie' to sail with me at this stage of my life.
SanderO likes this.

"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.
“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” ― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

facebook.com/svskippingstone
capta is online now  
post #13 of 38 Old 01-25-2020 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Currently, Hout Bay, South Africa
Posts: 217
Thanks: 1
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 2
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I watched about half the vid. Just some constructive input. Some scenes can be too long to get the point. Washing, rinsing and hosing could have been a 3 second clip, for example. I'm not trying to bash, just my suggestion. Keep in mind, while you inventory my perspective, I use the 10 second fast forward every time someone posts dolphins on the bow. I like them. I see them. Got the point in seconds. Kills me that 45 seconds later, they're still rolling.

Anyway, what motivated you to be a test pilot on the directions? I wish you well with it, but that's worrisome.

Minnewisaka I agree. After watching the same intro a few times, there is no need to watch it again so it is most likely, and easy, for a viewer to skip forward. I was thinking it is well time to change, and shorten, the intro to these videos. You have given me motivation to do so. It is a lot of work to put even a short intro together and not practical to do so for every new video. Soon we will be sailing along the African coast to Cape Town, so maybe I can get some usable intro footage on this next passage for a new, shorter intro. I made a long camera pole to poke down from the foredeck so maybe I can get some underwater penguin or whale video while they are swimming alongside the boat. Anyone can get video of sea life from the deck but is far more challenging to get the moving, underwater video. In any case the intro will be shorter. I am working on the blister repair video which will be up in a month. For that one, I will shorten the sailing part of the old intro to ¼ so you, and other viewers, won’t have so much to skip through. Maybe I will just eliminate it; we will see. The establishing, part to explain who we are, and the boat we are on, has to stay.

Normally, scenes should be 3 to 5 seconds, to keep ones attention. The problem is, this is not a silent movie for entertainment purposes. The spoken words are equally, if not more important, than the visuals. A viewer who skips through a section of long visuals, means missing important information. Not being a professional video crew, we have to do the real boat work and get what footage we can to get the point across. We don’t have someone dedicated to wander around with a camera and take videos all day. Working on our boat is the priority. Dicking around with a camera and trying to get angles and B-roll (filler clips so the main clip does not run a long time), at times falls to a distant non-concern, especially when my hands are full of fiberglass resin and I don’t want to touch an expensive camera, or I just need to concentrate on the more important job at hand. Then, during editing, there becomes the problem of what to do to help shorten scenes to get them down to be 5 seconds or less and visually explain what is happening. For the washing of the boat, the narrative had to run long, this was needed information so the problem was how to fill that space with video, rather than having just a blank, black, screen. I shortened that very,very long scene, by going back and taking a B-roll clip of the soap bottle on the ground, then water at the faucet running down into a bucket. That was sort of a senseless time killer but it did add B-roll to help run through the long dialog, and break up the washing clip. For us armatures, there is only so much we can do, or care to do. No one is paying us big bucks to produce these videos. I think it is far easier to write magazine articles…and certainly, the money is far better than making videos. But hopefully, this information will help other boaters.

We had no promising antifouling left to try but Coppercoat. We are going to the very cold water world of very far S. America. I want to spend as little time scrubbing our bottom in that water as possible. I want to avoid the pitfalls of other failed applications. The problem is, no one, even Coppercoat, can explain why this product, at times, fails. One would think Coppercoat would take a chip sample of a failed application and have it analyzed, like Practical Sailor might do. From my perspective, I see some of the Coppercoat instructions as being wrong, or incomplete. The best example is about washing off sanding dust prior to the application of Coppercoat. Coppercoat says to wash dust off with fresh water. Yes, but how? With a brush, rag, just hose it… One can take a 3,000 psi, pressure washer, and wash a car and still have a layer of residual dirt left on the surface. Using a soft bristle brush, while washing the car, will be equally ineffective. A soft rag has to be used during washing to get that car clean. We found the same rag method was necessary when washing all the sanding dust off our boat in between sandings and fiberglass layups or more puttying. So following the Coppercoat directions might not be the best method for some boat owners. Just relying on wiping down with clean paper towels, or very clean rags, and alcohol, I felt was not enough. So my “experimenting” is really an effort to do things I think are a better way, on our boat, than the skimpy instructions suggest, and hopefully, have positive results. Maybe those who have a failed Coppercoat application can give feedback on my deviations from the instructions and we can figure out how others might not have a failing.
Thanks for your constructive observations. This YouTube/video thing has been a very long learning process....and still is....But this is part of the fun of sailing around the world on a boat.
Minnewaska likes this.
overthehorizon is online now  
 
post #14 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
I don't discuss my member
 
Fstbttms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 2,617
Thanks: 15
Thanked 53 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 18
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
Annual bottom painting is very expensive.
I don't understand why anybody feels the need to haul and paint annually. There are only a very few anti fouling paints that can't provide two or three years (or more) of 24/7/365 anti fouling performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
My thinking has evolved to using an inexpensive hard paint and employ divers regularly to inspect and clean your bottom.
A common misconception is that in-water hull cleaning can replace an effective anti fouling paint. It can't. The two are needed in conjunction with each other.
pdqaltair likes this.

Last edited by Fstbttms; 01-25-2020 at 11:46 AM.
Fstbttms is offline  
post #15 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 4,488
Thanks: 2
Thanked 113 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fstbttms View Post
I don't understand why anybody feels the need to haul and paint annually. There are only a very few anti fouling paints that can't provide two or three years (or more) of 24/7/365 anti fouling performance.



A common misconception is that in-water hull cleaning can replace an effective anti fouling paint. It can't. The two are needed in conjunction with each other.
YES... but everyone seems to haul and block and bottom paint annually in LIS Southern NE. And many dry winter store and automatically as part of Spring prep, sand and paint.... habit I guess.

I suppose the paint will be somewhat effective... after even 3 years perhaps. I will paint only every 2 or 3 years... and diver clean in between!

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
post #16 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
I don't discuss my member
 
Fstbttms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 2,617
Thanks: 15
Thanked 53 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 18
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
YES... but everyone seems to haul and block and bottom paint annually in LIS Southern NE. And many dry winter store and automatically as part of Spring prep, sand and paint.... habit I guess.
I understand extreme winters require annual haulouts, but otherwise, it seems an expensive habit. In Florida and California, going three or four years between haulouts is typical.
SanderO likes this.
Fstbttms is offline  
post #17 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
Master Mariner
 
capta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: somewhere south of civilization
Posts: 7,810
Thanks: 167
Thanked 413 Times in 401 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fstbttms View Post
I don't understand why anybody feels the need to haul and paint annually. There are only a very few anti fouling paints that can't provide two or three years (or more) of 24/7/365 anti fouling performance.



A common misconception is that in-water hull cleaning can replace an effective anti fouling paint. It can't. The two are needed in conjunction with each other.
I'm sorry, but your statements are way too broad based for your experience. You do your thing in a tiny microcosm and have no experience outside that, that I know of.
As you are well aware, I've been complaining about the non-antifouling properties of modern antifouling paint for years, and obviously, from this thread and others proceeding it, I am not alone.
I think it only fair that you qualify your statements to say your experience is only in Frisco Bay, unless that has changed over the last year or so.
SanderO likes this.

"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.
“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” ― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

facebook.com/svskippingstone
capta is online now  
post #18 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
I don't discuss my member
 
Fstbttms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 2,617
Thanks: 15
Thanked 53 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 18
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
I'm sorry, but your statements are way too broad based for your experience. You do your thing in a tiny microcosm and have no experience outside that, that I know of.
Look chief, there are some constants regarding anti fouling paints and one of them is that there is no reason to annually renew a paint that has a useful lifespan measured in years.

You don't even believe there is such a thing as an effective anti fouling paint, so your opinion about them is barely worth the electrons you used to post it here.
Fstbttms is offline  
post #19 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
Senior Member
 
pdqaltair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 3,722
Thanks: 4
Thanked 131 Times in 129 Posts
Rep Power: 12
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fstbttms View Post
This is as close to a scientific, side-by-side comparison of any anti fouling coatings that I have ever come across. And it 100% supports what I have long said about Coppercoat- that it releases so little biocide that it is ineffective in areas that experience moderate to high fouling. It simply doesn't have the horsepower to do as good a job as even a worn-out mid-range ablative.
I once did a test of anodes by placing them on 18-inch copper pipes and leaving them in the water for a year. The pipes that had anodes had virtually no metal loss and were covered with hard growth. The control, with no anode, was pretty clean (not perfect) and lost about 9 grams of copper per square foot. That is probably more than is required.

If you do the math on the copper load of a typical paint with a typical application rate, it is 4-8 grams/ft^2, depending. But not all of that is released, and the higher figure is for a 2-year paint.

California has a copper leach rate restriction of 9.5 ug/cm^2 per day, = 9.5 x 365 x 929 / 1,000,000 = 3.2 grams/ft^2 per year.

So you need to release somewhere around 3g/ft^2 per year to get effective protection.

CopperCoat goes on about twice as thick as paint, but still, the copper load simply isn't enough for 10 years, IF it was released at an even rate. It's maybe 1/4-1/3 of that, which what we see. It works a little.

So the math says Fastbottoms is right. It can't have the horsepower. You can't cheat the math.

---

I've always gone 2-3 years, and yes, I like a very clean bottom. Some scrubbing is required, but not a lot. Without antifouling, some times of year you can expect hard growth in less than a week. I've done side-by-side tests. So yeah, the stuff really works in the Chesapeake (some formulas better than others).

Writing full-time since 2014
Author--Rigging Modern Anchors

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Keeping a Cruising Boat for Peanuts"
"Faster Cruising for the Coastal Sailor"
"Singlehanded Sailing for the Coastal Sailor"

Last edited by pdqaltair; 01-25-2020 at 12:19 PM.
pdqaltair is online now  
post #20 of 38 Old 01-25-2020
Senior Member
 
SanderO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 4,488
Thanks: 2
Thanked 113 Times in 113 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Coppercoat Application, Screw Up or Did I Do Okay

Bottom paints are equally bad and a PAINT in the BUTT

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
SanderO is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome