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New Balmar SmartGuage experience

26K views 296 replies 21 participants last post by  Bleemus 
#1 · (Edited)
Installed this at the beginning of the season and calibrated it to 100% charge and set it to GEL battery type, as the house was fully charged at the slip all week. My first few trips off the dock were short, so the batts never discharged below 80%.

Being away for the weekend more often now, I see discharge levels down in the 50s after a couple of days. But only twice at that level of discharge.

My odd experience, however, has to do with recharging, which may have nothing to do with the gauge.

Previously, all I had to identify charge was the Xantrex remote panel, which has three idiot lights for Bulk, Absorb and Float.

Now, I'm checking the new toy all the time, to see actual voltage and charge percentage.

The SmartGuage was not showing much increase in charge level, after running the generator for an hour or two. Previously, that would be about all I felt I needed to recharge a full days usage. It's been showing an increase of maybe 10% of capacity on a 400ah house bank. This is concerning, because I use more than that per day and I wouldn't think I would need to run the generator for more than two hours per day to keep up.

Then I noticed something on the original idiot gauges. They marched their way up from bulk to float, but the SmartGuage still said the bank was only 84% charged. Float should be 98-99, if I understand this correctly.

Could it be that the SmartGuage hasn't "learned" the house parameters yet? Remember, I've also considered that the idiot lights are wrong too.

Final symptom..... When plugged into the dock, I measure 115volts at the AC receptacles. When running the generator, I only measure 106 volts. However, in both scenarios, the SmartGuage seems out of synch with the idiot lights.
 
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#101 ·
The miswiring issues may or may not be the primary causes of what the SG is reporting.

They may also be causing the other more fundamental symptoms that also may have nothing to do with the SG.

I would advise getting to the bottom of the latter issues sooner rather, than later.

Best to know what is going on, to inform your planning, know exactly what you want to accomplish before the professionals come on board.

At this point an AH counting monitor seems IMO like a minor investment to help with diagnostics at key circuit locations, even if the SG does end up being more accurate for general SoC once you get things fixed up.
 
#102 ·
Okay, new season. I found some terminal corrosion, so I replaced the batteries with new. (I think my old inverter/charger may have killed them). I have a new Magnum inverter charger and all charge, take off and sensor cables are together, at opposite ends of the bank. That required making a few 2/0 cables. I also did a factory reset to the SG and reset it for Gel. Stay tuned. Hope this works.
 
#104 ·
Your actual goal is 100% Full as per trailing amps. Calibrating an egg-timer approach requires a bit of trial & error.

If your load usage patterns are consistent then just keep bumping up the Hold time, until you observe the source hitting that goal, say at least half the time.

If inconsistency makes this difficult, you may need to Finish charge manually once in a while.
 
#105 ·
After the new batteries charged for about 12 hours, the reset SG now says 89%. It reportedly takes 48 hrs to figure things out, but it’s progress from the default of 75%. I shut the charger off to put some load on the batts. A dozen or so lights, the nav equip, etc.

Voltage dropped to 12.5-12.6 volts under load. Seems normal. After an hour or so, I turned the Magnum charger back on and it immediately went to float. I think it will do that at voltage above 12.4. I was hoping it would default to the 90 min Absorb and I could set a timer to 85 mins and watch final amps. Not sure how to do this now.
 
#106 ·
The only way I can get my charger to get out of float once it goes into it (too early and 1 of the reasons I'm researching replacements) is to put it into equalize. It of course doesn't go into equalize voltage as the batteries aren't really fully charged, but it will drive toward full charge and the voltage will climb as it does. So I just keep an eye on the voltage and acceptance amps till it get to where I want.
 
#107 ·
Interesting thought. Thanks. I wasn't sure how to manually charge with this unit.

You can't equalize Gel batteries, as the high voltages will boil the electrolyte in the Gel and ruin them. However, on the Magnum, equalize voltage is set the same as Absorb, to prevent this. I think I have a contact with Magnum in my future.
 
#109 ·
I figured out it won’t start over in bulk, unless the charger loses shore power for a bit. Batteries were at 12.4 volts. They were 5 minutes in bulk, then to Absorb. It’s been 1 hr on Absorb at 14.3 volts (temp adjusted from 14.1v, as the batteries are 62 degrees) and they are taking 28amps. We’ll see.
 
#110 ·
Most chargers will reset back to CC/CV once disconnected at both ends for a while, maybe put in strategic switches if you regularly need to do this to combat premature infloatulation manually

With the SmartGauge my understanding is it can take a half-dozen cycles before its learning curve for your bank dials in, obviously will vary depending how closely your batt's behaviour matches one of the patterns in its database, as opposed.

The "reset to 100%" feature should not need to be used regularly, but as long as you are being consistently precise in your measurement and actually stopping at endAmps, it may help early in that learning phase.

In looking over my notes from various old threads' speculation on the exact mechanisms used internally, "impedance spectroscopy, micro-burst currents, frequency response analysis conductance tests, deriving internal resistance" I came across

"that's why you have to use #14 AWG wire"

I can't see that in the instructions, ring a bell with anyone here?
 
#111 ·
It jumped to float, while I was distracted. It was drawing about 15amps in Absorb last I looked. Now 12 amps in Float. I’m going to up the Absorb time to 2 hrs and run her down again tomorrow, to see if she charges better.

The SG now says 74%, while the charger is in Float. Starting to feel like the same pattern as last time.
 
#112 ·
I would set Float=Absorb and just watch, will be a while before you hit endAmps even then. What's your target, 1 or 2A?

Then tell SG it's at 100%.

Getting your HAT calibrated, I'd probably set very high and watch trailing amps against overcharging, then adjust downward as needed.

Going a bit too long sometimes is less harmful than only rarely getting all the way.
 
#113 ·
Keeping the batteries at absorption voltage for too long isn't much of an issue - as their internal resistance rises they will accept less and less current.

On the other hand too short of an absorption time will leave the batteries less than fully charged and that is damaging.
 
#115 ·
Don't (ever) believe **anything** telling you "full" except **amps acceptance measured at the bank** dropping below the bank mfg endAmps spec.

Then the first time, you reset the SG and cover it up, don't even look at it for a week of daily cycling getting back to that definition of Full each time.

Meanwhile working to make sure your adjustments to your charge sources are getting them to hold Absorb until endAmps without your watching, at least most of the time.
 
#123 ·
Batterries are new, on Tues of this week.

I shut the charger off this morning and turned on all sort of unnecessary things to drain them during the day. Nav equip is on, as if we were sailing (I’m commissioning at the slip this week). Later today, I think I will crank the Absorb time up to 10 hours and set an alarm to check every hour to determine where Float should really start.
 
#124 · (Edited)
Batterries are new, on Tues of this week.

I shut the charger off this morning and turned on all sort of unnecessary things to drain them during the day. Nav equip is on, as if we were sailing (I'm commissioning at the slip this week). Later today, I think I will crank the Absorb time up to 10 hours and set an alarm to check every hour to determine where Float should really start.
As has been stated the low absorption voltages of GEL batteries leads to longer absorption times. Generally speaking you're looking at a minimum of about 4 hours for absorption but it can be more or less depending upon the charge rate.

When you see less than 1% of Ah capacity flowing in, @ absorption voltage, but preferably lower, like 0.5%, the batteries are pretty much full. Seeing over 12A at a float voltage is quite a ways from full. The last 5% of charging is painstakingly slow due to the horrible Coulombic efficiency when you near 100% SOC.

Your Ultrapower batteries are just Deka/East Penn GEL's. When we were conducting the AGM Battery PSOC testing for Practical Sailor, East Penn insisted that return amps needed to fall to 0.3% for their AGM's. Keep in mind this was with absorption voltages of 14.6V. I would aim for at least 0.5% of Ah capacity at 14.1V.

For what it's worth this is a 400Ah bank, @ 12V, of Trojan L-16's. When full, all the way full not "premature floatulation full" this bank needs only 0.1A or 0.025% of Ah capacity in charge current to maintain 14.4V.

 
#125 ·
Here’s another indication of being no where near full. I just disconnected the charger and turned more load on about 3 hours ago.

Chart plotter, autopilot (not doing anything) vhf radio, stereo, 12 cabin lights, 2 fridges (already cold, not running continuously),bilge and freshwater (also not running continuously). This is a reasonable facsimile of being underway. Bank is already down to 12.3v, under load.

Charger is coming back on after a few minutes of rest. I am putting the Absorb time out to 10 hours and will monitor. I don’t think the Magnum remote shows anything under 1amp.
 
#128 · (Edited)
Here's another indication of being no where near full. I just disconnected the charger and turned more load on about 3 hours ago.

Chart plotter, autopilot (not doing anything) vhf radio, stereo, 12 cabin lights, 2 fridges (already cold, not running continuously),bilge and freshwater (also not running continuously). This is a reasonable facsimile of being underway. Bank is already down to 12.3v, under load.

Charger is coming back on after a few minutes of rest. I am putting the Absorb time out to 10 hours and will monitor. I don't think the Magnum remote shows anything under 1amp.
That voltage is pretty meaningless as an indication of state of charge. If you want to see what the load really did you would have to turn off all the DC loads and wait hours for the batteries to rest and remeasure the voltage. Based on my experience with my 440ah bank your 12.3v with that loading suggests the batteries were pretty well charged.
 
#126 ·
Ironically, my old Xantrex charger was set up by inputting total bank capacity, although, may have converted this to Absorb time. I certainly recall that Aborb took longer than Magnum’s 90 min recommendation. This Magnum setup sets time in Absorb. Why wouldn’t the a multi-stage charger just have a setting for charge amps to switch over? Seems simpler.
 
#129 ·
Ironically, my old Xantrex charger was set up by inputting total bank capacity, although, may have converted this to Absorb time. I certainly recall that Aborb took longer than Magnum's 90 min recommendation. This Magnum setup sets time in Absorb. Why wouldn't the a multi-stage charger just have a setting for charge amps to switch over? Seems simpler.
My charger uses amps. But all it knows is that it supplying 10amps. But that might be still putting 8 into the batteries and that's only 95-98% charged
 
#131 ·
I think we’re on to something here. I ran my batteries down to 12.3 volts, under load. The Smartguage said 50% of capacity.

I set the charger to Absorb for 10 hours and turned it on. It went into Bulk at 82 amps for 5-10 mins, then dropped to Absorb. Here’s the Absorb progression.

Hours - Amps from charger - Smartguage reading

0 - 63a
1 - 36a - 64%
2 - 24a - 74%
3 - 21a - 81%
4 - 21a - 86%
5 - 18a - 91%
6 - 18a - 95%
7 - 18a - 99%

If I assume some minor loads on the system (fridges and lights) this amount of output would seem about right to put ~200 Ahrs back into the bank.

Unfortunately, I can’t get it to stop Aborb and force to Float. It wants to finish. I hope the 10 hrs doesn’t hurt anything.

I’m hittitng the sack. We’ll see what it says in the morning.
 
#132 ·
I got up randomly in the middle of the night, at hour 11 of charging. The charger was on Float, but it said 0 amps. I interpret that to suggest it was less than 1amp, since the Magnum charger reads in whole digits and, if it were truly zero, it would have read full. When I woke up at hour 16 of charging, the charger was on Full and 0 amps with 13.1 volts. The Smartguage now reads 100%!!

I can't tell exactly when it dropped from the 18 amps of charge in Absorb to just a few amps. Somewhere between hours 7 and 10. I was asleep.

Any reason not to just leave Absorb time at 10 hours? Would it hurt anything?

Looks like I might not need to return the Smartguage to @Maine Sail after all, but was a victim of premature floatulation. :)
 
#133 ·
p.s. I’ve ordered the Magnum battery monitor, with a shunt. It plugs directly into the charger and will read on the remote. Perhaps it monitors charge state better and this Absorb time thing isn’t relevant. I can’t find where it says that’s the case, but it’s boating. If something is a problem, throw money at it. :)
 
#134 ·
I've never seen 0 amps on my battery monitor with the battery on float. Isn't your charger reading in total amps supplied? If so wasn't the refrigerator or something running?

Regardless glad you got charged. There probably isn't anything wrong with leaving your charger in absorption for 10 hours, but I don't think I would do so if my system. I would be more inclined to put it in 4 hours and let the batteries be at 99% and then every once in a while, say every couple weeks, run it longer. I have no experience with gel batteries, but think there's a bigger concern with over charging them than open cell FLA. Either way I would made changes slowly so I knew the amps and knew when the change over should be.
 
#136 ·
There probably isn't anything wrong with leaving your charger in absorption for 10 hours
There isn't, even with GEL, when it's just a few testing or maintenance cycles under manual observation.

Wouldn't leave an automated setup there unless endAmps shows it's needed, big enough bank low enough charge source like solar-only, it could be required, maybe still not Full by sunset is pretty common.

And a sign to start Bulk charging from dino juice in the mornings.

> I would be more inclined to put it in 4 hours and let the batteries be at 99% and then every once in a while, say every couple weeks, run it longer

No, for longevity getting to Full 100% should be at least twice a week, more frequently is better.

For that purpose there is a big difference chemically between 100% as per endAmps, and even 98-99% SoC.

Going a bit too long on hold time is not really risky with GEL, it's too high a Voltage where you get into actual damage.
 
#135 ·
Good stuff.

I generally don't trust charge source readouts, but Magnum's got a great rep. Fact they only do whole numbers is odd but perhaps just honest.

I have to believe that BM is a good one, and will at least integrate with the Magnum mains charger to control Absorb-Float transition based on some endAmps, hopefully you can custom set it to 2A.

You should definitely be mindful with GEL to not be overcharging i.e. too long HAT, more than a few hours a few times per week.

The BM will have you covered for shore charging.

If there is an extra relay on the BM, perhaps it can also be triggered by the same setpoint? Then the Victron SC can be left at a **very** long Absorb time setting, but the BM opens the connection between the panels and the SC.

Otherwise once the BM is in place, just keep tweaking the Victron max HAT setting until you see it's hitting 2A endAmps before dropping to Float at least a couple / few cycles per week.

When cycling solar only as above there really isn't that much danger of too much overcharging given that sunset comes daily. But still keep an eye on things, and if the Victron's dynamic algorithm seems too strong when the boat's not in use, definitely dial the HAT back until you getback in cycling mode.

If you care for maximum accuracy put an accurate ammeter on the bank next cycle and give SmartGauge that 100% Full reset right at the point when trailing amps hits 2A.

If you don't have a decent ammeter I guess tgat can wait for the BM, but then SG may need to start its learning curve all over again. NBD really lon as you're aware.

Great progress, congrats!
 
#137 ·
OP, are you planning on charging your GELs from Alt?

Since we now know your bank is Deka, I'd try to get their detailed spec sheets for their GEL lines even if they don't publish for the Ultrapowers specifically.

Pretty sure 14.2V is at the **high** end of where you want to go.

Deka/East Penn (888) 844-7704
 
#138 ·
Thanks for all the input!!

This last cycle was likely from as low as could be anticipated. I changed Absorb time to 7 hours and will see what the next cycle looks like. If I was certain that a longer Absorb time won’t hurt the batteries, I would leave it at 10 hours. From my amateur understanding, the Banta will just take lower and lower amps, so I’m not sure the downside.

The Magnum said 14.3 volts in Absorb, but it adjusts for cold temps and has a temp sensor on the bank. It shows the bank at 62 degrees, which pushes the voltage up from the standard 14.1 volts in Absorb.
 
#139 ·
FWIW - I'm ain't no expert and never claimed to be. I'm a practical cruiser engineer type and am not interested in little petty corrections to practical useful answers/info into being the correct "technical" answer. In my years of naval ship operations, application engineering, and sailboat ownership I've yet to discover the correct technical answer to be of more use than the practical application use. I definitely have not found a boat that seems able to read and okey manuals, including nuclear subs! As such it is a waste of time to quote me and make minor petty useless "someone is wrong on the internet " corrections!

Don "ain't no expert" :kiss
 
#140 ·
I went through the day yesterday, in normal fashion. I left her plugged in, charger on and used 12v appliance as usual: lights, stereo, etc. As stated, I woke up, with the charger on Full, zero amp output, batteries at 13.1v and the SG said 100%! Overnight, the only thing that would have drawn 12v would be the fridges, but it was cold and doubt they cycled much.

As the morning wore on, the charger remained on Full, while voltage began to drop slowly to 12.9, then 12.8. At some point, not long after 12.8v, the charger comes back on in Float mode? It stays on for a couple of hours and returns to Full. The Smartguage now reads 91%.

My head is spinning.
 
#141 ·
Glad I don't have one of those "Smart" Gages. I can't help you with it other than to suggest to maybe disconnect it so it stops making you crazy. I run my system based on amp-hrs out, voltage, and battery acceptance. But it sound that my $120 battery monitor State of Charge reading is at least as accurate as your "SG".

You battery charger turns itself off and on when on float????
 
#188 ·
So do you believe the SG is correct?
I heard your position that you think this gauge is a waste of time. However, it's forced me to educate myself and troubleshoot this system, so I've found it very worthwhile. For that matter, I have to assume Gels are the least common marine battery type. If I can help troubleshoot this thing to work better, someone else may benefit.
 
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