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Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

15K views 78 replies 21 participants last post by  chef2sail 
#1 · (Edited)
[I'm posting this in the Chesapeake sub-forum because selection of antifouling paint is specific to local waters.]

I've used Pettit solvent based antifouling paints with good results on my prior boat for the past 7 years (both Vivid and Ultima SR-40/PCA Gold). But that was in the "freshwater" Delaware River. Since moving my new boat to Rock Hall's brackish water last summer, I have higher salinity level and potential for hard growth, so paint selection will be much more important. The previous owner of my current boat had the Herrington Harbor slap some very low-end ablative on it just before I purchased, and it worked well for one season (except for barnacles on every spot that the paint didn't cover, like prop, shaft, and air conditioner strainer). The boat definitely needs fresh paint this year.

Paints have changed quite a bit since I last painted my prior boat. In 2015 BASF discontinued the Irgarol anti-slime additive (aka "NCN"), so paint compositions have changed a lot. Manufacturers are packing more copper in than they used to (Ultima SR-40 increased copper from 40% to 47.5%), and adding other ingredients like PTFE to enhance ablation in the absence of Irgarol.

Given that the paints I used to like have all changed, and I am in different waters than I used to be, I need to reconsider what paint I'm using. During the boat show, paint reps were pushing waterbased paints, saying that many Chesapeake boatyards are starting to switch to them. Of course, most of the market is powerboats, and what's best for powerboats may not be best for sailboats due to the need for different ablation rate.

So I'm interested in hearing recommendations from those who have purchased Irgarol-free paint in the past two years.

Just as a warning, any suggestion that starts with "I've been using this paint for x years" may get some push-back if x>2 years. Any paint bought before May of 2015 has likely been reformulated since you bought it.
 
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#51 ·
Its a crapshoot!!!!
The salinity (re: -barnacles , etc.) of the Upper Chesapeake varies greatly with the direction of the prevailing winds.
In those years with predominant S-SW winds there will be considerable 'mixing' of the north flowing seawater along the bottom with the more fresh water going south on top - reduced 'hard growth and slime'.
In those years with primarily westerlies, mixing is reduced and barnacles and hard growth and 'slime' tend to thrive.
Its a crapshoot for bottom paint selection on the upper Ches. vs. barnacles and slime.

Barnacles tend to be more intense the further north you are on the upper bay --- probably influenced also by whatever mixing is occurring on the Delaware Bay and the season to season flow differences though the C&D into the Ches.

A few zebra mussels have supposedly been identified below the Conowingo Dam ... and that has the potential to change 'everything'.

As to water-based coatings, for myself I think I'll wait until there's more successful usage history. Im also hesitant to change to some water based coating, find it insufficient to control what I want .... and then have to go through a bursitis aching episode in removing it in order to replace it with any new a more 'wonderful' offering.
I used to use Micron-Extra (w/ Irgarol) with high success and will simply go back one step and return to Micron-CSC for the interim ... and move to a slip where there is more 'moving' water under the boat.

BTW - after diving overboard and hand cleaning intense slime from my hull last summer, I contracted yet another severe mycobacteria infection whose 'after effects' after 6 months still has me severely 'under the weather'. So, Im more keenly interested than ever in better slime and barnacle control for the upper Ches.
 
#52 ·
I agree that fouling conditions can vary from year-to-year and location-to-location.

But back to my prior point, a soft ablative that sloughs off easily at typical sailing speeds of <8 kts can be a great equalizer. Since the cheap stuff that I ended up with last year worked so well, and there's lots of it left on most of the boat, I've decided to try just putting some more on this year.

I'm a "weekend warrior" who hauls out every winter, so I think this may be a good approach for me. YMMV. But I will assert that paints that are designed for multiple seasons on a planing powerboat may be the wrong paint for a sailboat.

...BTW - after diving overboard and hand cleaning intense slime from my hull last summer, I contracted yet another severe mycobacteria infection whose 'after effects' after 6 months still has me severely 'under the weather'. So, Im more keenly interested than ever in better slime and barnacle control for the upper Ches.
Ouch, I feel for you! Perhaps a softer paint that comes off without the need to dive in might have less adverse health effects.

FWIW, I did jump in once last season and used a push broom on my bottom. I consider myself lucky that I didn't get a similar infection, and hope to avoid doing that this year. But then again, my bottom seemed awfully clean before brushing, so maybe there wasn't much there to infect me. I didn't want to reach in and feel for slime, so I just pushed the broom along the bottom without really checking.
 
#53 ·
Let's face it...if I pulled my boat every year...I would use the cheap stuff too. Why use expensive paint and pay for it to be hauled every year. It would be a no brainier and not need a lot of large discussion. Most of us are weekend warriors. The real difference is between the year round in the water vs the 7 months in 5 months out

I prefer not to pull the boat and stick her in 8 jackstands on land for many reasons
1- added expense , lots of expense which I can put to use to charter someplace nice once a year
2- I hate hearing my mast humming in the wind like a tuning fork with no where for the energy to go except down 8 jackstands. At least
In the water the energy is disapated
3- the least amount of time Haleakula goes into the slings or for that matter jack stands the less chance for pressure to be put on specific
Points of her structure which really are not designed for that.
4- it's much harder for me to work on anything internal in Haleakula if I have to go up a ladder.
5- like Sisyphus repetitively painting every year is an excercise in futility.
6- the least amount of times I have to sand/ paint around those toxic chemicals the better
7- I am not at the mercy of some one telling me I must be pulled by a certain time and the fretting / being upset about being
Blocked in when I want to launch. This shortens the sailing season.

For those of us who leave our boats in the water multiple years the choice of bottom paint is much more critical. Also a certified diver to mind it a couple times a season is a good policy.

Like I said if I was a one year at a time boater, I would look for the cheapest paint. At $80 a gallon that certainly fits the bill. But let's face it you get what you pay for. Spending $120 more a gallon or $240 more ( which really is minor , and because it is on for 3 years actually is the same cost per year at $80) when we used Micron Extra or CSC they were good two year paints. The Ultima has allowed us three with two dives a year. I never worry about our bottom paint since we switched. Also many have my friends who use Ultima either 40 or 60 never consider going back.

One of our criteria for a marina was one which had fixed piers and also the fee was for year round usage. This actually cuts down on our expense of hauling.

So you can choose to roll that boulder up the hill every year, and then let it roll down, or spend your time on other pleasurable things than painting the bottom of the boat.
 
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#56 ·
I prefer not to pull the boat and stick her in 8 jackstands on land for many reasons
I've come to agree with you on not hauling out at wintertime. Can't stand the rat race to get boats splashed in the spring. At most yards you'd have to haul in September to not be pressured in the spring. September and October are my favorite sailing months. Any work I've had to do with resins or sealants has been tricky during winters. Good luck getting a sustained run of days with lows above 50 degrees (especially weekend days!) in March and good luck cramming all the sealant/resin work into the first weeks of April if you're blocking other boats.

Much prefer to do maintenance haul outs in July or August. Sure, the heat is awful, but not a bad part of the sailing season to have to miss out on. My yard offers a week "free" on land before you're supposed to start paying rent, but they're not very strict with that during the slow season. Everything is much more laid back they don't have 100 other customers breathing down their necks to splash. In the summer they've been much more responsive about things like repositioning jack stands and making sure I had power and water. I've had them keep the boat in the slings overnight to paint the bottom of the keel while in the spring mad rush there's never time for that.
 
#54 ·
I'm not sure I understand the difference in "ease of clean-up" with water-based paint.

1. Rollers are disposable either way.
2. You hardly use a brush, so a chip brush is fine.
3. Washing off a copper-laden brush with water, either on land or over a sink, is basically illegal. Copper discharge to the sanitary sewer is restricted to PPM levels in the sewer ordinance. So while household disposal is basically exempt, washing off a brush is environmentally wrong, and the ability to wash out is irrelevant.
4. It shouldn't be on your skin--that is what gloves are for.
5. It's going to dry onto the tray either way. Same with the mixer. And washing them is environmentally wrong--see 3.

So basically, no difference. Bottom paint is not house paint. The ingredients are toxic and should not be washed down the drain. Just let them dry and pitch them.

(Charles County, MD. Many areas are more strict, and industrial limits are more strict.)

(4) Local Limits
The following pollutant limits are established to protect against pass
through and interference. No person shall discharge wastewater
containing in excess of the following: (daily maximums)
PARAMETER DAILY MAXIMUM (MG/L)
Total Arsenic 3.45 mg/l
Total Cadmium 1.37 mg/l
Total Chromium 1.78 mg/l
Total Copper 2.14 mg/l
Total Cyanide 0.94 mg/l
Total Lead 5.01 mg/l
Total Mercury 0.008 mg/l
Total Nickel 36.94 mg/l
Total Silver 0.45 mg/l
Total Zinc 1.21 mg/l
Total Molybdenum 0.25 MG/L
Total Selenium 0.05 MG/L
BOD5 350 MG/L
Total Suspended Solids 400 MG/L
Ammonia 45 MG/L
 
#61 ·
We put bubblers/ice eaters in the water at my dock. This is essentially a weighted, submersible electric motor with a propeller on it that circulates warmer water from below, to the surface. The constant motion also reduces or prevents freezing.

My boat sits in its own, private pool of liquid water all winter. The bubblers also protect the pier from "pile jacking" caused by ice lifting the pilings out as the tide rises and lowers.
 
#58 ·
This year all we ever had in the creeks of the Patapsco was a skim of ice for a couple of days during the coldest cold snap. That's pretty normal although we had a hard freeze in 2015 for about 2 weeks. The northern bay and eastern shore can be more susceptible to sustained freezing. Bubblers do a good job keeping it at bay. During the 2015 freeze, my boat got frozen in hard and suffered no more ice damage than superficial scratches to the bottom paint near the water line.

My own view is that the risk of hull damage from ice (at least in this area) is minimal. Docks tend to take more damage than boats. The bigger increased risk is sinking, and this should not be a significant concern if the cockpit drainage system is in good condition and the through-hulls are in good condition and properly winterized. Of course, everyone's own mileage may vary and I leave it to you to do your own research and check your own insurance requirements.

I think people haul out mainly for peace of mind. When the boat's in the water I tend to check on it every 2-3 weeks. When it's on land I've gone as long as 2 months. Also, a lot of marinas incentivize hauling out by charging a separate "winter storage" fee whether you stay in or haul out.
 
#60 ·
We only have a very few that store in the water. Being on the hard does give the hull a chance to dry out, but I can't wait until I might actually use the boat year round!

At most, our marina may skim over with ice, which is no problem. A couple of years back, the ice pack got so bad (very unusual), it pulled several pilings and flipped a finger slip or two. It's not just about how your hull makes out, but what you're tied to.
 
#62 ·
I've hauled for the winter once in 30 years. The hull was dented by improper jacking. Never since, don't see the point.

And the sailing was lovely Sunday. I sail all year, more fun for the $$. Spring commissioning is just a matter of filling the water tank (it was cleaned and left dry in the fall).
 
#66 ·
My purpose in starting this thread was to discuss some different paint options than the standard paint lines that everyone is always pushing. I had sworn by Ultima SR-40/WM PCA Gold before, but my new boat and new location were an opportunity to consider alternatives. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do what I am doing, but I also think it's healthy to reconsider one's cherished beliefs occasionally. I re-think all the options every time I paint.

Seeing that Nautical ProGuard Ablative had never been mentioned on Sailnet, and never been reviewed in Practical Sailor or any other major publication, I thought you guys would be interested in hearing about my good experience with it so far. If not, then just put me on ignore.

I do not ever intend to re-paint my entire bottom every year. I've always done a few touchups every off-season, and I intentionally save some leftover paint to do that in future years. Seeing how well my ProGuard performed for me, and how much pristine paint is left on the vast majority of the bottom, I have good reason to believe that it will last me 2-3 seasons with only minor touchups. If not, I'll be looking for a different paint. But for this coming season, I've ordered one gallon of the stuff to effectively do large area touchups for the next couple of years. I'm not even going to mask off the bootstripe, because the actual waterline (where some wear occurred) is far enough below the masking line that I can touch it up without masking.

This discussion has also morphed into a debate on winter haulouts. I can see the benefits of staying in the water all year. If I lived 45 minutes or less from a good sailing location, I'd leave her in too. But I live an hour and 45 minutes away, and I just don't want to have to worry about the things that can go wrong in a winter storm. So I haul out at a local club that's 12 minutes from my house, and only charges me $400 for haulout/storage/launch. Every storm I can run down and check on things easily - plus easy proximity for winter projects. My walk-through transom with swim ladder makes for a trivial climb into the boat. I've been to the boat in 40+ mph winds on the stands, and I've seen no problems with energy dissipation. I've never even seen a hint of oil canning on the hull. Insurance statistics say the boat is safer on stands, though clearly neither in-water or on the hard is 100% perfect.

So to all of you who are fortunate enough to enjoy being in the water all winter, good for you! It's just not a perfect solution for everyone.
 
#68 ·
My purpose in starting this thread was to discuss some different paint options than the standard paint lines that everyone is always pushing. I had sworn by Ultima SR-40/WM PCA Gold before, but my new boat and new location were an opportunity to consider alternatives. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do what I am doing, but I also think it's healthy to reconsider one's cherished beliefs occasionally. I re-think all the options every time I paint.

Seeing that Nautical ProGuard Ablative had never been mentioned on Sailnet, and never been reviewed in Practical Sailor or any other major publication, I thought you guys would be interested in hearing about my good experience with it so far. If not, then just put me on ignore.
I for one certainly appreciate the information. In particular since it comes from someone (you) who knows a lot more about paint formulations than I do, and who is able to competently chat with paint sellers.

I won't use the Nautical ProGuard paint this time since I already have my bottom paint in the basement (always buy it in the way-off-season when it is cheaper). But I will certainly give Nautical ProGuard Ablative a try at the next haulout -- in two years!
 
#67 ·
Rick,

No one wants to put you on ignore for expressing your opinions nor should they. My opinions based on the facts : things I have seen are why I posted what I have. I have seen boats misshapen after spending a winter on jackstands. I have experienced the "tuning fork " phenomenon on my own boat on the land. I think people want to hear from other sailors on here and their experiences even if they are different so they can determine what they want to do for their own boats. There is no need to defend your actions or what you do what you do for your boat when I or someone else poses a contrary or dissimilar way of handling things.

After receiving many opinions you decided you were sticking with what brought you here. You have you reasons and there is no right or wrong only what's right for you and others can / will decide what's right for them when it comes to deciding bottom paint or whether to haul and reprint every year.

Many times threads do morph and other things are discussed related. Just because you start a thread doesn't necessarily mean you control it. We all have seen that happen where a thread morphs . Many times the more is relevant to those who are posting and also exposed paralllel or other issues telating to the main topic. In this case the revelance was apparent as many chimed in.

Very few of us have a deal as you do for a $400 hsul
Haul out and launch. We could travel 55 miles on way to the Deleware River but we don't . For us it's still cheaper to just stay in our slip. Checking on our boat once a month is no big deal and we are usually doing projects year round anyway. Intuitively I doubt that's it's less dangerous to be on land but you say there are insurance statistics so maybe you can share your references. I always like seeing metrics on decision making.

It's good you have reaffirmed your decision to stay with what you have. It's is also good others chimed in with their opinions and practices so as to share with newcomers as well as seasoned sailors on Sailnet. All is good🤘🤘🤘😄😄😄😄
 
#69 · (Edited)
Good news, everyone! Irgarol (aka NCN; aka (4E)-4-(Cyclopropylimino)-N-(2-methyl-2-propanyl)-6-(methylsulfanyl)-1,4-dihydro-1,3,5-triazin-2-amine) is finally available to bottom paint manufacturers again, and reappearing in their updated formulas.

NOTE: Some environmentalists may not consider this good news, since Irgarol's effects on the environment are a concern due to potential distortion of the bottom of the food chain.

You can find this slime reducing additive in many paints, including Pettit Ultima SR60 and SR40. Petit had compensated for the loss of Irgarol by raising copper content to 65% and 47.5% (respectively), and (I think) adding some PTFE, presumably to resist adhesion of slime. Now they appear to have gone back to the old formulas with 60% and 40% copper content, and 2% Irgarol.

At the moment Pettit shows product data sheets for BOTH Irgarol and Irgarol-free versions on their website, presumably because both versions are still out there in the supply chain:

Pettit | Ultima SR-60 (Note two TDSs for the two formulas)

Pettit | Ultima SR-40 (Note two TDSs for the two formulas)

You may want to check the label of whatever you buy to make sure you know what you are getting. Maybe you prefer the new/old formula with Irgarol, but maybe you prefer the interim formula with higher copper content. This is a good reason to buy this stuff from a brick-and-mortar store, since you'll know exactly what you are getting.

I am sticking with my inexpensive AkzoNobel Nautical Proguard Ablative paint ($90/gallon). I stumbled onto this paint almost by accident when I bought my boat. Herrington Harbor put it on a completely clean bottom (PO had stripped it), and it worked better than I expected. The main benefit I've seen is that it has adhered very well with virtually no chips coming off at all (which was a problem with my prior boat). I know from experience what a pain it can be to battle adhesion problems, so I'm playing it safe and sticking with the exact same paint to ensure that I have the maximum inter-coat compatibility.

As for Pettit's "orphaned" formulas of Ultima paints without the Irgarol that were sold from 2016-2018, I do not believe that Practical Sailor ever tested them. Perhaps Drew can chime in and let us know.
 
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#71 ·
I'm not so sure that modern manufacturers haven't designed in the idea that a boat will likely be on stands for periods of time. No doubt, it's putting different stresses on the hull. Floor hatches and doors don't open/close quite the same, when we're on the hard. They return to normal in the water.

There is no right or wrong with hard vs water storage, IMO. Pros and cons. The risk in the water is not burst pipes from failing to winterize, it's problems that multiply when not observed routinely. The smallest leak in season can sink a boat or create a mold farm you may not inspect for weeks at a time, over the winter. I don't see my boat for 6-8 weeks at a time in the winter, which is too long for me to be comfortable in the water. I probably would choose the water, if I was going to stop by weekly. I've long since given up on winter projects aboard. Way to bloody cold.

Plan B is going to be to take her to Bermuda or SC for the winter and pay a local boat manager to inspect her weekly and hose her down. I already have inspected marinas in both locations and have found the local individuals to do this. Then I'll live aboard for periods of time getting things done in a temperate climate, or just get away for the winter, from time to time. While I'm stuck in RI, the hard it is.
 
#72 ·
I'm not so sure that modern manufacturers haven't designed in the idea that a boat will likely be on stands for periods of time. No doubt, it's putting different stresses on the hull. Floor hatches and doors don't open/close quite the same, when we're on the hard. They return to normal in the water.

There is no right or wrong with hard vs water storage, IMO. Pros and cons. The risk in the water is not burst pipes from failing to winterize, it's problems that multiply when not observed routinely. The smallest leak in season can sink a boat or create a mold farm you may not inspect for weeks at a time, over the winter. I don't see my boat for 6-8 weeks at a time in the winter, which is too long for me to be comfortable in the water. I probably would choose the water, if I was going to stop by weekly. I've long since given up on winter projects aboard. Way to bloody cold.

Plan B is going to be to take her to Bermuda or SC for the winter and pay a local boat manager to inspect her weekly and hose her down. I already have inspected marinas in both locations and have found the local individuals to do this. Then I'll live aboard for periods of time getting things done in a temperate climate, or just get away for the winter, from time to time. While I'm stuck in RI, the hard it is.
Minni... any boat should be watched and inspected periodically in water or dry stored. To not do so is irresponsible. I try to get there once a week and at worst let two weeks go by. I don't image that a leak on the deck will sink the boat but it will require attention... re bedding a deck fitting for example. The cockpit well freezing into a block of ice would be worrying. Boats are covered in water for that reason. I don't store the boat more than an hr and now it's a half hr from where I live. No excuse to get there frequently. Plus I do projects, and organize..

You get what you pay for. I would never expect a yard or anyone to inspect my boat and do so diligently as I would... in the winter.
I have winter stored Shiva in water almost every winter she was up north with a few exceptions and have had not a single problem. That's over 34 years!
 
#73 ·
While I agree one needs to inspect their boat routinely, I'm very comfortable with the notion that it be required more frequently in the water than on the hard. More risk in the water. Our marina offers both, but only one or two boats stay in. The slips become literally painted with seagull crap and they do not maintain them, until Spring, as the water is shut off.

I'm certainly not saying there is anything wrong with in water storage, I thought I made that clear. I just don't see it as an advantage over storing on the hard, unless you plan to be there weekly, as in your case. I can not and will not have that opportunity over the winter.

For what it's worth, the winter marinas I visited make a business out of snow bird in-water winter storage. There are manager's who do these inspections for a living, among other projects. They'll send weekly pics or video of their inspection. In a temperate climate, I'm really just asking for a security check, bilge is dry, fenders are in place and lines are secure. These folks also manage other things, such as detailing the topsides and decks. That would be luxurious to just be ready to go in the Spring.

The balance for me is the time it will take to get there and back. It's about break even to the time it takes me to decommission and commission each Fall/Spring. But with the added annoyance of not being able to specifically time the passage.
 
#74 ·
In water storage is substantially less expensive than taking the boat out and storing dry. I found a dockaminum situation which is dirt cheap... very protected, a fair amount of boats stored in this location and "club members" who are looking after things all winter. Yes there is goose poop on the docks. Not a big deal actually. There are rules but the cost is negotiated with the slip owner. I couldn't be happier with this location and there's a West Marine two blocks away if I need something marine. For me this is a no brainer... safe, protected, inexpensive.. 25 minutes from home, very near access to marine stuff.

I can shoot up there when there is a good weather day as winter ends to recommission, bend on sails and do the running rigging... And when the really nice weather comes and water is back on... detail the boat. Close makes this sort of thing possible.

I painted the bottom this fall and may do this again.. or wait to Spring '20 do it again. There's even a handyman who does boat detailing over there.
 
#75 ·
Sounds like a sweet arrangement, SO.

The economics at our marina are not quite as obvious. We paid approx $4,400 for winter storage on the hard, all inclusive of haul, wash bottom, stands and launch. In water would have cost $3,200 plus actual metered electricity and I don't know what that would be. I would still need to pay for a round trip in the travel lift for bottom paint, zinc, etc. No divers allowed. That's $540.

I don't think I can adequately describe the gull crap and broken clam shells on our dock over the winter. No way to walk around them, so you would be forced to track it aboard. Once we all occupied the docks again, they go elsewhere. However, these past few years, we've had mallards in the marina, during the summer. Cute but absolutely awful. You never want to walk to shore at night, without a flashlight. It looks like a pack of dogs crapped all over the dock.
 
#76 ·
Not to make you envious... charges are not by the foot. I paid $700 w/ electricity... which I hardly use only when I am on board. If I do work on the bottom it will be a short haul and block and then have to pay yard rates... whatever they are. I selected a corner slip with the finger on one side and no boat in the other.
They allowed me to store the dink on the dock behind the boat where they have a rack for kyacks in the summer for $100. The harbor is on a deep channel and has hurricane doors! Least expensive wet storage I found in the area was $1,700 plus electricity.

This is definitely a keeper.
 
#79 ·
You guys up north getting taken advantage of

Many if not most slips on the Chesapeake are year round price so storing on land at the going rate of $22-$25 per foot is just an added unnecessary expense. Even if I pulled every year I wouldn't use a limited bottom paint.

As far as expensive bottom paint, in our case they are worth the weight in gold. Our Petit Ultima60 lasts three seasons in an area which traditionally is high in bottom growth. It does a great job .

Now if your paying full retail price or Marina price Ultima 60 might be $250 per gallon, but every year it goes on sale if you pay attention, and you can buy right for about $150. No way some cheap ass eco friendly paint can compete with 60% copper with Ingeraol. And certainly not for 3 years.

We do use Haleakula a lot so that does helook the ablative properties and we have a diver go down in July or do the zincs as well as prop. We have been using prop speed now for 5 years. By year 3 it is beginning to lose potency, but the f III retail two years the diver reports mostly clean bottom and very little prop growth.
 
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