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Original Head on PSC 34

7K views 45 replies 10 participants last post by  chef2sail 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm working on replacing all of the hoses for my head. Of course I had to remove the Raritan PH head in the process. There is a 2" thick piece of mahogany on which the Raritan sits. Upon removing that I discovered the holes for the old head. I'm guessing from the footprint that it might have been a Groco K-H (the Groco is higher than the Raritan as well, which would explain the 2" wood pad).

Does anyone know if mid-90s PSC34s had a Groco? Any reason that I would want to go back to the Groco? It certainly seems more robust than the Raritan.

While I'm posting, any thing else that I should keep in mind as I change out all the hose? I'm cleaning all the hull and probably going to repaint while all the hose is out of the way. I'm replacing with the Raritan Sani/flex hose. Also going to clean the holding tank (my guess is it hasn't been done in a long time, if ever).
 
#2 ·
Yup, mine has a Groco Model K. I haven't had any problems with it, so far, although I did replace the flapper valve last year. I've been considering replacing all the sanitation hose also, but it's not that high on my list of priorities yet. Given how stiff the original Trident hose is, it cannot be an easy job. Let us know how it goes.

Joost
 
#3 ·
Thank you Joost. After posting I did some additional digging and research. I'm leaning heavily toward switching back to a Groco. The Raritan isn't a bad piece of equipment, but it's not built like the Groco.

I'll let you know how the change goes. I just have the clean-out hose and two shorter pieces left to remove. So far not too bad, especially since I could get the Sawzall in to cut the longer pieces in half. That made it much easier to remove.
 
#4 ·
Bill, we have a Groco on our 1987 PSC 34 and it works well. A few years ago I replaced the hoses to and from the holding tank, replaced the plywood lid on the holding tank, and cleaned it out. I'm glad that's over! Anyway, the worst part of the job was replacing the hoses. I had a terrible time positioning myself to be able to attach them to the holding tank. Good luck.
Steve
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the info and encouragement. I know that it isn't going to be fun, but I'd rather be doing it in the cool of early spring in Cleveland than on an extended voyage. It's so tight, both under the sink cabinet and in the space immediately inboard of the holding tank, where the pump is. I've heard that the Raritan Sani-flex and a good heat gun will help.
 
#7 ·
Thanks Bill. That's good information, I hadn't thought about trying to get underneath the plinth.

I wonder why the PO removed the Groco. They also replaced the deck mounted table with a bulkhead mounted table. A decision that I would not have made either.
 
#8 ·
OP mentioned cleaning out the holding tank . OP does your tank have a full indicator ? I tried to find the one we have but no luck . Ours is a simple set up that consists of a plate that holds a shaft that a float goes up and down on and makes a 12V connection and turns on a light . Anyhow to mount this thing you hole saw a hole and screw the thing down with a nice gasket , in the past it also doubles as a access port so I can see in there and I can get a hose nozzle to blast the thing clean .
 
#9 ·
To be honest, I haven't paid much attention to it yet. I do know that the first season that I owned the boat, I managed to pressurize the holding tank to the extent that when I opened the clean out on deck, had I not opened it slowly and the pressure was relieved, I would have been covered in $hit. :) A full gauge might have helped me to avoid that mistake. I'll check once I get to that point.
 
#12 ·
I removed the Groco head, hoses, pump, and all fittings except the trough hulls and replaced them with a composting head. I think that the PO had an incident in the head, took about 6 months for the smells to go away. Made a new lid for the holding tank. After cleaning it out I sprayed it with Kilz sealer several times. Again the smell lingered. Unfortunately I did the work in the summer, Winter / Spring in Cleveland is a good time.

regards charlie
PSC 34
Windrunner
 
#13 ·
Thank you Charlie. I was considering using an epoxy barrier coat to try and block out any odor that had permeated the tank itself, but I've used Kilz in houses and it usually works. Wow, maybe the PO did have a serious incident in the head.

I took all the teak doors off to varnish them at home. Driving them home, and even with them in the garage, 'that smell' was there. Everything gets permeated with the odor. That reminds me that I need to take some Odoban with me today when I go to the boat to finish removing the last couple of hoses. I'll wipe down everything with Odoban, that kills all kinds of nasties. When I helped out at the local Humane Society we'd use Odoban to clean the kennels. That stuff does a great job.
 
#16 ·
I've gotten all the old hoses off and have started to clean and prep the space for new paint.

I've got two questions. I've looked at the lid of the holding tank and it is some type of plex or plastic (similar to the lids used on the water tanks of a PSC, of this vintage). There are several dozen screws and the lid does not leak. I'm thinking that it might be smart to simply leave it alone, rather than open it up and try to clean it out. An alternative is to cut a hole and put in an inspection port, which would allow me to do some cleaning and if I made it a clear inspection port, I could possible see when it's full.

Second, the attached drawing is from the PSC34 manual and shows the plumbing for the head. The Y after the vented loop has no valve on it. To divert from the holding tank to overboard, one closes the valve on the holding tank and opens the valve near the seacock. The hose that runs to the seacock is a run of about 5 foot or more. It seems like that would always have sewage in it when using the holding tank, and could quickly permeate the hose (even though the Raritan hose has a 5 year no permeation guarantee). Would it make sense to replace the Y with a Y-valve?
 

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#19 · (Edited)
My 2005 31 has a Y-valve. I would be reluctant to add a view port, seems like it's just another place for leaks and odors to escape.
Thank you teejay. Maybe PS realized their oversight by the time they built your boat. Mine is a 1994 vintage. Yes, I agree, an inspection/view port would be a risk. I'm leaning against it.

Bill,

My setup is the same as yours. I've often wondered why Pacific Seacraft did it this way as it certainly isn't ideal for permeation. I guess using the Trident hose helps. When I replace the hoses, I will probably put in a y-valve.

Regarding the tank, there is a procedure for sealing the lid that has appeared on this forum a few times. My impression is that it is not so easy to get a good durable seal. So unless the holding tank is leaking, I would avoid taking off the lid. I wonder if it is possible to clean out the tank by half filling it with water and some special detergent, and then going for a sail in boisterous conditions?

Joost
Thank you Joost. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one wondering about why they did the plumbing without cutting off the possibility of allowing sewage to sit in the hose. One way of preventing that is to regularly purge that line, but then it would presumably just fill up again on the next flush.

The only thing I was wondering about was that since the design of that actual joining of three hoses is with a T-coupling (not a Y as implied in the drawing), and the line to the overboard discharge comes off the side of the T-fitting, maybe they felt that the flush would predominantly go to the holding take hose (which is fitted to the bottom of the T-fitting). See photo.

I agree with you on the resealing of the tank lid. I cleaned out the aft water tank and removed the lid to do so. It was a pain to get a good seal on it, my first attempt had a leak. With fresh water that's just an annoyance, but with holding tank effluent, quite another story. I like your idea of filling it with water and then going for a sail. Plenty of boisterous days out on Lake Erie.
 

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#18 ·
Bill,

My setup is the same as yours. I've often wondered why Pacific Seacraft did it this way as it certainly isn't ideal for permeation. I guess using the Trident hose helps. When I replace the hoses, I will probably put in a y-valve.

Regarding the tank, there is a procedure for sealing the lid that has appeared on this forum a few times. My impression is that it is not so easy to get a good durable seal. So unless the holding tank is leaking, I would avoid taking off the lid. I wonder if it is possible to clean out the tank by half filling it with water and some special detergent, and then going for a sail in boisterous conditions?

Joost
 
#20 ·
We are pretty close to the West Marine recommended system.

Everything always goes into the holding tank. We do have a vented loop between the head and holding tank as the lip of the toilet bowl is lower than the top of the holding tank. We have a Henderson diaphragm pump for discharging the holding tank as I consider it more reliable than an electric pump. The through hull is kept shut and padlocked inside the USA. Outside the USA the system allows us to choose the time and place of making an overboard discharge.

The level in the tank is monitored with a SCAD/Ferriello gauge. We have both the external tape sensor and the PVC internal pipe sensor. We are currently using the pipe sensor. We have a 4" Beckson clear deck plate in the tank top below which hangs a fishing bobber. If I can see the bobber floating, the tank is full.

The tank is full.

Bill Murdoch
1988 PSC 34
Irish Eyes
 
#21 · (Edited)
Thank you Bill. I'm very tempted to follow your example. That would remove two fittings and at least 5 feet of hose. Although it will be some time before I ever discharge overboard (I'll be on the Great Lakes for at least 5 more years), it'd be nice to be able to select the time to discharge. There is a Whale pump already in the setup to allow one to discharge from the holding tank. I can't think of any advantage to keeping the direct overboard discharge. The only problem that I have is that I'll have to remove the Y-fitting at the seacock (I'm going to bring the pipe wrenches to the boat tomorrow to assess just how difficult that is going to be). Actually, I wonder if they make a plug, that I could replace the hose barb fitting with and then not have to go to the trouble of removing the Y.

Did you do this conversion yourself Bill? I've done a lot of plumbing work on houses, however I haven't yet done any work on the bronze thru-hulls. Would one use regular teflon tape on the threaded fittings or is there a special (probably much more expensive) product that is used to help assure a waterproof seal on the threads?
 

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#24 ·
My re-plumbing and head replacement project is moving along well. So far I have all the 1.5" hose replaced, new bronze Groco vented loop installed, rebedded the deck plate, rebuilt the Whale discharge pump (btw, you can get a nitrile diaphragm for the Gusher [1994 vintage] which is supposed to be more impervious than the original neoprene), cut a hole in the top of the holding tank cover for a 4" clear inspection/cleanout port, removed all the low spots in the plumbing, and removed the direct overboard discharge line.

Some before and after photos:
 

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#25 ·
A few more after photos. So much cleaner and the 'head' smell is abating. Also repainted all the interior cabinet spaces while the hoses were out. Just need to finish installing the new Groco head and the project will be complete.
 

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#26 ·
Bill,

Looks really neat. I'm wondering if I shouldn't do the same next time I haul. How easy was it to work with the saniflex hose? Is it a lot more flexible than the exhaust hose Pacific Seacraft installed originally? Did you wind up putting in a y-valve, or did you get rid of the holding tank bypass? Any more info on the nitrile membrane for the gusher? I noticed in the past that when I winterize the system, antifreeze seems to affect the rubber.

Thanks,
Joost
 
#29 ·
Bill, most likely I'll be replacing the sanitation hoses in my boat this spring. I noticed some of the old hoses are cracked and the small is noticeably stronger than before.

How is the sani-flex working for you? Are you still happy with it? A few more questions if you don't mind. What is the inner diameter of the hose you used? Is it 1.25 or 1.5 inch? How much hose did you need? And how much time should I budget for this? I think you used a dremel tool to remove the hoses from their fixture - how did you prevent scoring the fixtures?

Thanks!
Joost
 
#30 ·
Bill, most likely I'll be replacing the sanitation hoses in my boat this spring. I noticed some of the old hoses are cracked and the small is noticeably stronger than before.

How is the sani-flex working for you? Are you still happy with it? A few more questions if you don't mind. What is the inner diameter of the hose you used? Is it 1.25 or 1.5 inch? How much hose did you need? And how much time should I budget for this? I think you used a dremel tool to remove the hoses from their fixture - how did you prevent scoring the fixtures?

Thanks!
Joost
To date I'm very happy with the Sani-flex. Still an odor-free head. Mine was (and I assume yours is too) 1.5 inch ID (503529HID112 is the part number from Defender). As to the length, I'm not sure what I actually used, I'll measure next time I'm on the boat (should be sometime later this week). I ordered 30 feet, but that is much more than I ended up using, especially since I removed the 'direct overboard' option from mine.

As to time, I have no idea. I did so much beyond just changing out the hoses (isn't that always the way with boat projects), so it's difficult to say. Disinfected, cleaned, sanded and painted the interior of the compartments where I removed the hose (even the cabinet surfaces had a rather 'heady' smell). I removed all the doors, sanded and varnished with six or seven layers of high gloss (Epifanes). Changed the head itself and rebedded the deck plate. I'm guessing that if you worked at it, one could remove all the old hoses in a day or less. Then a day or two to cut and reinstall? Just a guess. However, if your hoses hadn't been changed in some time, like mine, just doing the hoses won't get rid of the smell, and you may as well at least clean and repaint the interiors of the cabinets while the hose is out.

With the Dremel and a thin diamond wheel, it was quite easy to control and I didn't go all the way through, just most of the way, then the hose easily yielded. I also cut the hose into smaller pieces to make removal easier. That old hose gets pretty stiff and there was no point in fighting it when it was going in the dumpster anyway.

Best of luck on your project. I am very glad that I did mine, it's so nice not to have to apologize for the 'boat smell' when I have guests on board.

I'll check the lengths next time I'm at the boatyard.
 
#37 ·
TQUIG: We installed an Air Head because of its slightly smaller size. It fills up the head compartment but works OK as far as size. It does not smell. After some usage we quit adding toilet paper and it seems to work better. Was did smell for about 1.5 years was left over smells from the previous head. Smells lingered even after removing all hoses, cleaning and sealing the inside of the holding tank.
regards charlie
PSC-34
Windrunner
 
#39 ·
Hi Bill,

Thanks so much for the measurements - 25 feet is exactly how much hose I got. I'm actually in the middle of the project right now. I decided to keep the direct discharge line, mainly as a backup system, but am installing a Y-valve instead of that T-fitting. That way the direct discharge is always closed off except when we need to use it for some reason. Removing the old hoses was a pain...

Thanks,
Joost
 
#40 ·
I think that you'll be glad that you made the change. It's so much nicer to open up the boat and not smell or have to apologize to a guest for the 'boat smell.' Make sure that you use some sort of bleach or disinfectant (I used Odoban) and wipe down all the interior spaces under the sink and the vee-bunk. Mine were pretty saturated with odor.

One other think you might consider, while you're at it. I didn't have any way of knowing whether the holding tank was full. I installed a clear, 4" inspection port in the lid of the tank. Seal it VERY well though.
 
#42 ·
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#43 ·
I too use one of the 4" Beckson clear inspection ports to provide both physical and visual access to the holding tank. I posted a photo in post 20 of this thread. You can see a pair of magic marker marks that let me know when I have it properly tightened. You can also see a fishing bobber that is tied with a piece of line to a screw in the boss on the bottom of the clear cover. It lets me know when the tank is 80% full. I find it more reliable than the Scad level gauge which indicates high if there is an accumulation on its sensor. I can clean the sensor (either the internal sensor or the external sensor) through the inspection port with a wand connected to my anchor washdown pump https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BGHYDO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 or by hand with a scraper and brush while wearing an OB glove https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/producers-pride-ob-sleeves-clear with a nitrile glove over my gloved hand and a rubber band over the OB glove at my upper arm.

And, that wand is the best of the anchor washdown nozzles I have used. I can rest it on the anchor chain roller shooting down the chain rinsing the chain as it comes up. It is easier to aim.

Bill Murdoch
1988 PSC 34
Irish Eyes
Currently social distancing in Miami Beach after abandoning our annual trip to the Bahamas
 
#44 ·
My SCAD has worked perfectly for over 8 years. External sensors are the way to go. Simple and clean.

The inPection Port is only for cleaning and emergency. I would not want to keep opening it to see my tank level and expose ourselves to the bacteria and stench. That procedure of checking levels by opening an inspection port a lot will lead to an issue eventually.
 
#45 ·
My Scad holding tank level indicating system has not been perfect. That said, Richard Ferriello spent much time working with me attempting to improve its operation. He was most helpful. I have both the original outside foil sensor and the internal PVC pipe sensor. Both are in place and I can use either one. I own two single tank display systems. One is marked SCAD and the other which Richard sent me is marked Profile. The Profile is newer and is currently in use. Except for the printing on their faces, they appear identical. My system fails because a brown, gooey, particle containing material slowly builds up on the tank walls and on the PVC sensor fooling the capacitance sensing circuitry into thinking the tank is full. When that happens, I open the inspection port, clean up the mess, and once again have a working electronic level sensing system. In a few months the problem reappears.

Take a look at the photo that I mentioned. It is in post 20 of this thread. You will see that I can visually check the level in the tank without opening it. I do not have "to keep opening it to see my tank level ". I simply raise the v-berth cushion corner and take a peek. Do take a look at the photo. You will see the bobber is on its side and thus not dangling on its string but floating indicating that the tank is over 80% full. I find the bobber makes it much easier to accurately pronounce it time for a pump out. It meets all three criteria -- good, fast, and cheap.

Bill Murdoch
1988 PSC 34
Irish Eyes
 
#46 ·
That good...so it acts like the float in a toilet.
I’ve never had the issue with the external sensor failing.
Next time I open the inspection port I’ll make sure a wipe the area internally where the sensor is.
 
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