SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
I noticed a couple days ago that there is a leak near the mast step. When it rains, water is coming down the inside of the compression post. Does anyone have pictures of what the mast step looks like with the mast removed? I need to figure out how to fix this problem. I'm pretty sure that water is not coming down through the standpipe with the wires, I sealed that a while ago. My guess is the bolts of either the stainless plate or the mast step.
The problem is that the core under the mast step is probably plywood. Water getting into the plywood will rot it out right quick. That is something you need to got on immediately before cost of repair escalates. Will probably require pulling the stick to get at the mast step base.
I looked through several years of boat pics, but this is all I could come up with. I'm sure that others have a better photo. If nothing shows up before Wednesday, I'm going to the boat again and will shot one then.
Thanks, Bill, I'm trying to figure out what the possible paths of ingress are other than the standpipe for the wires. I had the mast stepped in fall to fix a bunch of stuff, it's a shame I didn't find out back then (or take a picture).
Well know this is a thread for a 34 mast step leak but curious if anyone has thoughts about how the mast step on a 1989 vintage PSC31 is handled. It appears we also have a little leak with water coming down the compression post as well. It's been 10 years since she had her mast down and not on our watch.
Same thing happened to us. The mast step is made to shed water through the limber holes, so the only likely access is down the standpipe. I also thought I had sealed ours well, but discovered it was leaking all the way down the groove in the compression post into the bilge. After much sleuthing I discovered rainwater was leaking all the way down the wires in the mast from poorly bedded masthead stuff, including one 3/16" hole left when a masthead light was changed to another brand.
After the holes/leaks at the masthead were fixed and everything was dry at the standpipe opening, I force pumped MARINE GRADE silicone sealant (no acetic acid) into the top of the standpipe using a quality caulking gun until I could see it oozing through from under the deck at the top of the compression post. Then I pumped it around the wires at various locations in the bundle where it entered the standpipe and, finally, shaped a mound of silicon above the standpipe and worked it around the wires with gloved hands.
We sailed the Pacific for eight years after that through tropical deluge and monsoon. No more leaks.
There is really no issue with the deck core getting wet as it is sealed around the pipe, at least it was in our 1996 PSC34. The real problem is the laminated oak compression post. Oak rots if left perpetually wet in a poorly ventilated area and the laminations are also in jeopardy if there is a lot of dry/wet cycling because oak expands and contracts significantly. As part of the fix. I coated the entire groove of the post with West System epoxy, just in case I got any further leaking (never did).
Same thing happened to us. The mast step is made to shed water through the limber holes, so the only likely access is down the standpipe. I also thought I had sealed ours well, but discovered it was leaking all the way down the groove in the compression post into the bilge. After much sleuthing I discovered rainwater was leaking all the way down the wires in the mast from poorly bedded masthead stuff, including one 3/16" hole left when a masthead light was changed to another brand.
After the holes/leaks at the masthead were fixed and everything was dry at the standpipe opening, I force pumped MARINE GRADE silicone sealant (no acetic acid) into the top of the standpipe using a quality caulking gun until I could see it oozing through from under the deck at the top of the compression post. Then I pumped it around the wires at various locations in the bundle where it entered the standpipe and, finally, shaped a mound of silicon above the standpipe and worked it around the wires with gloved hands.
We sailed the Pacific for eight years after that through tropical deluge and monsoon. No more leaks.
There is really no issue with the deck core getting wet as it is sealed around the pipe, at least it was in our 1996 PSC34. The real problem is the laminated oak compression post. Oak rots if left perpetually wet in a poorly ventilated area and the laminations are also in jeopardy if there is a lot of dry/wet cycling because oak expands and contracts significantly. As part of the fix. I coated the entire groove of the post with West System epoxy, just in case I got any further leaking (never did).
I discovered the leak as I was cleaning the deck with a hose - somehow water is getting into the boat even if the water isn't flowing over the standpipe. My current working hypothesis is that it wicks underneath the mast step into the deck opening that the wires pass through. I'm getting the mast pulled on Tuesday, so I'll have a better idea then. I'll probably need to rebed the mast step. Do you know if the standpipe passes through the deck?
Once I've sorted this, I'll follow your advice about coating the inside of the compression post. I'll take a look at the mast head as well.
I don't think the pipe passes all the way through the deck, but I do think it varies depending on the year of the boat. For instance, none of the pictures in this thread look exactly like our mast step. Our wire bundle went through a heavy wire reinforced hose, like exhaust hose, that stood proud of the floor of the step by about two inches. It fit through a short metal standpipe on the mast step that only stood about an inch above the floor of the step, not like the tall metal downpipes shown in the pictures above. The hose went very tightly through the standpipe, and the wire bundle forced it against the flange even tighter. The hole in the deck was sealed with what looked like epoxy or polyester to protect the core but I actually don't think the plywood core extended into the built-up area under the step where the hole was, but I could be wrong.
That is strange that water is getting below from outside the step area. I haven't heard of that in these boats so far. I hope all is revealed when your mast is pulled and you can get it fixed easily.
On my boat the base plate at the bottom of the mast had only a simple hole in it. I talked to LaFiel, and they suggested welding a 6" long piece of 1" aluminum pipe to the plate to make a standpipe. I did that. The yard put everything back when I replaced the compression post. https://www.sailnet.com/forums/pacific-seacraft/71387-psc-34-compression-post.html
I had attempted to seal the space between the wires and the hole with silicone caulking; both the usual thick stuff and the pancake-syrup-viscosity stuff (Permatex 81730). Right now with the standpipe, I am using Ideal Industries Duct Seal. It is a Play Dough, non-drying, clay-like material that is packed between and around the wires.
I have enlarged the two weep holes at the very bottom of the mast so that they can be easily flossed with a pipe cleaner. And, I have several times tested them and the seal around the wires by running water into the mast thru the rectangular hole covered by the inspection plate near the bottom of the mast.
The two bolt heads inside the mast were buried in (covered over with) 3M 5200 by the yard before they reinstalled my mast last time as an additional protection against leakage along that path.
All four of the bolts through the stainless mast organizer plate under the mast now have their heads buried in silicone caulk. I found that leak after building a little dam of green florist putty around each one and filling the resulting ponds with water... one leaked.
I have removed all the blocks from the stainless mast organizer plate, made a duct tape dam over the holes in the turned up edges, and filled the pond with water to see if water could get between the base plate at the bottom of the mast and the organizer plate.
I have made a dam on the surface of the deck with florist putty all around the entire mast base and filled it with water to see if there was a leak between the stainless mast organizer plate and the deck.
I keep a piece of Kleenex with several lines drawn across it with a water soluble kids marker crammed into the inside of the compression post as a leakage tell-tale. The thing still leaks, and I have cosmetic damage to my new compression post.
Good luck. I hope you have it. I don't.
Bill Murdoch
1988 PSC 34
Irish Eyes
p.s. The races at the Family Islands Regatta in George Town this year were a hoot. We had a ball as did our two onboard guests for the week.
Thanks, this is very helpful. My mast step already has a standpipe and I attached a piece of exhaust hose to it to further extend it. I then plugged the hole with silicone. I think that's a good seal. I have also drilled an additional limber hole at the base of the mast to make draining easier.
If I direct a jet of water at the base of the mast step, it leaks. If I do the same at the base of the organizer tray, it doesn't. That leaves either the bolts of the organizer tray, those of the mast step, or the joint between the mast step and the organizer tray. I tried to check the bolts or the organizer tray yesterday using the same method you used, and they seem dry, so it's probably the bolts of the mast step or the joint between organizer and mast step. Either way, I'll need to remove the bolts and rebed the mast tray. According to Thumper, they are lag bolts, so I'm hoping they won't be too difficult to remove. For the PSC 37 they're not lag bolts and the nuts are hard to access. Did you notice how the mast step is fastened in your PSC when you replaced the compression post?
My main concern is damage to the compression post and to the deck plywood in case the bolts are compromised. I also put a paper towel inside the compression post as a telltale, but didn't think of the marker - that's a good idea.
Mast is getting pulled tomorrow. Once I figure out what's happening, I'll post an update.
I posted a pic of the new cast aluminum mast plug from LeFiell that I installed.
Our 1980 C37 just had a hole in the step and plug--no stand pipe or drain holes and rot had started in base of the post.
The new step had both and fixed the water intrusion problem. West epoxy thinned with MEK fixed the soft wood.
Bottom line: all the bolts to remove the cast mast plug and SS step can be removed but it's a chore.
John
s/v Pelagic
1980 C37 Yawl
Lake Union, Seattle, WA
Thanks, John. I had the mast pulled yesterday and I'm heading to the yard to take a look. According to Thumper at Pacific Seacraft, the mast step on the PSC 34 is attached with lag bolts. I really hope it is, as I don't feel like messing around with the headliner.
So, I made it to the boat today and had a look at the mast step. As Thumper had pointed out, the mast step on the PSC34 is held down by two lag bolts. That's different from the 37 where it is fastened with two regular bolts. The lag bolts came out very easily and the mast step popped right off. The bedding between the mast step and the stainless organizer tray was completely delaminated (see first picture) and there clearly was water trapped between the two. I cleaned off the old bedding compound and rebedded the mast step and lag bolts using Sikaflex 291 (on Thumper's recommendation). The second picture shows the mast step in place. To seal the standpipe, I first plugged it with a piece of absorbent mat (the kind I use below the engine to catch any oil leaks) and then poured self-leveling silicone almost to top of the pipe. I also took the opportunity to bed some of the wires at the masthead - there were a couple of gaping holes that allowed water to run down the inside of the mast.
Thanks for all the info and advice - it was very helpful. Let's hope this fixes the problem.
Thanks, Dave. I still need to double check that this fixed the problem, but I expect it to. If not, rebedding the organizer tray is a much bigger job given that the bolts are not easily accessible. The silver lining of all this is that I now have the opportunity to touch up the paint on the mast - why did Pacific Seacraft paint their masts instead of anodizing?
I don't believe Lefiell is out of business. Their website is alive and well, which is a good thing, because you can also buy all the mast hardware (tangs, bolts, etc.) for your original mast. I once called them up, gave them the year and PSC model and they sold me exactly what I needed to completely replace the rigging and hardware (except the wire rope)—things that were not online in their website. Their prices were very reasonable and they were very helpful and quick to ship.
They also make the masts, booms and spreaders, and they will either paint or anodize to your order.
I don't believe Lefiell is out of business. Their website is alive and well, which is a good thing, because you can also buy all the mast hardware (tangs, bolts, etc.) for your original mast. I once called them up, gave them the year and PSC model and they sold me exactly what I needed to completely replace the rigging and hardware (except the wire rope)-things that were not online in their website. Their prices were very reasonable and they were very helpful and quick to ship.
They also make the masts, booms and spreaders, and they will either paint or anodize to your order.
Dave, that is great to hear! I was told by PSC that they were no longer in business. That would be the first inaccurate info they have given. Maybe they said didn't make the spars anymore but even then? Thanks for correcting my assumption/information. Spent a good part of the day last Thursday meeting Steve, Thumper many of the craftsman there and seeing an almost completed 31 among other projects. Holy Moly, she is beautiful but also just North of $400,000. Feeling better about the price we paid for Interlude. Pic is of the new 31 with Thumper and myself (on the right)
So, I just checked if re-bedding the mast step fixed the problem. The answer is "sort of". Re-bedding the mast step fixed the main leak, there is no more water coming down the compression post, but I noticed that one or two of the bolts holding down the organizer tray are weeping. I think the issue is that the bolt heads are slightly too small for the holes in the stainless and there are two sides of the heads that do not cover the hole, allowing water to penetrate around the bolt.
Question is how to fix this. This is not really an issue of keeping water out of the boat, the amount of water entering is tiny. I am worried about the plywood in the deck that would be exposed to water. I think I can access the nuts of the two aft bolts, but the other two are buried somewhere next to the bulkhead. Any suggestions? The thought occurred to get four little stainless caps slightly larger than the bolt heads and use them to cover the bolt heads with a lot of bedding compound. I think it would fix the leak, but it just doesn't seem right. The right way is to remove the bolts, fill up the holes with thickened epoxy, drill out the holes and re-bed the bolts, but that supposes I can remove them in the first place.
I just found this picture of someone rebedding the mast plate on a 1998 PSC 37 #337, "Cilantro." Picture of plate attached. Perhaps you can contact them to see how they did it. This is their blog: s/v Cilantro (Sue Carnahan and Curtis Smith). Apparently, Curtis Smith posts on this forum, user name: whimbrel (last posted 2016). Maybe you can PM him. From what I can read, Bitterseet Landing was involved with the work in July of 2012. Their phone number is 207-644-8731.
Thanks, Dave, I'll look into that. First thing tomorrow morning, I'll call Thumper at Pacific Seacraft and see if he has any recommendations on how to get to the nuts. Once the bolts are out, the re-bedding should be pretty easy, unless of course I stumble on something else - that always seems to happen with sailboats, doesn't it?
I just found out from James.Gitana on the "Crealock 34 mast tang bolts and nuts" thread that Lefiel sold their marine division, including their inventory, to Forespar at 949-858-8820. So, that's why the conflicting info on the subject.
Thanks, for the picture of Thumper. I have talked to him a number of times and it's nice to see his smiling face at last.
Yes, Lefiell has shut down their marine division. We bought our new mast/boom from them in 2014 for our refit and I think ours was the last set of spars they made. At that time, the marine department was down to one guy, and I'm quite certain he retired after our order was fulfilled. Didn't know of the sale to Forespar though.
Anyway...
After our full refit, after enduring Hurricane Irma and a subsequent year of repairs, and after 1,000 or so miles sailed since the Irma repairs...we have water running down our wires in the mast. This has just started with a set of squalls over the past few days. (We're in Marathon, FL.) This is a first for us, and the only new holes in the mast are from Irma repairs: the replacement radar cabling and mount; the loudhailer cabling and mount; the VHF antenna mount; the wind speed/direction transducer; and the spreader lights. (The VHF antenna and wind speed/direction unit used existing mounts, but were still removed and reinstalled for cabling replacement.) Right now, it is a mere trickle, but trickles unchecked can become torrents. What is peculiar in our case, is the water seems to only run down one side - the aft side - of the compression post where the cabling and wood touch. Surface tension causes it to 'puddle' in the tiny gaps between wire and wire ties. The visible portions of the conduit, etc., and forward side of the post are dry.
The rig was down for the storm repairs, but we don't feel like this is coming in at the step. We think it must be one of the 'new' holes, or perhaps an existing hole through which cabling or wiring passes, as the water seems concentrated on the cabling, and where the cabling is contacting the compression post, on the aft side of the post channel.
Is the standpipe that the wires pass through sealed? I plugged mine with the material I use to catch oil drops below the engine, and then sealed it with a layer of self leveling silicone. The other major path of ingress is the mast step itself. In my case the bedding material between the stainless organiser tray and the mast step was completely compromised allowing water to seep between the two and then run down the standpipe. After rebedding the mast step, the bilge is dry.
It's great to see you are back on the boat. Run over to the Home Depot store in Marathon and buy a pound block of duct seal. It is a Play Dough like stuff near the cable ties and electrical tape. With it and some duct tape you can find the source of the leak and maybe fix it.
Here is the plan...
Use the duct seal to plug the drain holes at the bottom of the mast. Remove the inspection plate and pour a couple of cups of water into the mast. If it leaks through, the leak is at the two bolts that are in the mast step. Other than pull the mast, I don't know of a fix.
Add more water until the standpipe is under water. If it leaks through, the leak is where the wires go into the standpipe. Water is running down the wires. With patience, long fingers, and a mirror or bore scope, you can seal around the wires with the duct seal. That is its real purpose. You could also try to find where the water is entering the mast and fix that, but there are unavoidable holes in the mast and water seems to always find a way.
Pull out the Duct Seal plugs and make sure the mast drains.
Take the blocks off the organizer plate under the mast and using the duct tape cover over the holes and open corners, then fill the plate with water. If it leaks through, the leak is either the four bolts or the joint between the aluminum casting and the plate. You can use the duct seal to discover which one. Burying the bolt heads in 5200 or sealing the joint from the outside might fix the leak.
Use the duct seal to build a dam on the deck around the mast step. Fill that pond with water. If it leaks through suspect the joint between the plate and the deck.
It's great to see you are back on the boat. Run over to the Home Depot store in Marathon and buy a pound block of duct seal. It is a Play Dough like stuff near the cable ties and electrical tape. With it and some duct tape you can find the source of the leak and maybe fix it.
Here is the plan...
Use the duct seal to plug the drain holes at the bottom of the mast. Remove the inspection plate and pour a couple of cups of water into the mast. If it leaks through, the leak is at the two bolts that are in the mast step. Other than pull the mast, I don't know of a fix.
Add more water until the standpipe is under water. If it leaks through, the leak is where the wires go into the standpipe. Water is running down the wires. With patience, long fingers, and a mirror or bore scope, you can seal around the wires with the duct seal. That is its real purpose. You could also try to find where the water is entering the mast and fix that, but there are unavoidable holes in the mast and water seems to always find a way.
Pull out the Duct Seal plugs and make sure the mast drains.
Take the blocks off the organizer plate under the mast and using the duct tape cover over the holes and open corners, then fill the plate with water. If it leaks through, the leak is either the four bolts or the joint between the aluminum casting and the plate. You can use the duct seal to discover which one. Burying the bolt heads in 5200 or sealing the joint from the outside might fix the leak.
Use the duct seal to build a dam on the deck around the mast step. Fill that pond with water. If it leaks through suspect the joint between the plate and the deck.
Thanks too for the 'roadmap' plan. The kicker is this: our mast does not have an inspection plate at the base - or anywhere, for that matter - and the original spar which was on her when we bought her in '03 didn't have any either. There are two small drain holes on the sides of the mast at the base. If the leak is at the standpipe, etc., or anywhere under the mast, then we're looking at having to pull it...hence my plan to try to find the source on the spar. If that method fails, well...we can always cut inspection plates with the spar in place...though I'm not really a fan of that idea.
It's certainly possible the four bolts holding the organizer plate in place have started leaking; I'll try the dam-building method this week. I'm also going back through my pictures from the Irma repairs when all of the mast wiring/cabling was being run to see how it looked prior to the re-stepping of the rig.
The ironic thing is, after a light shower yesterday morning, slight trickles were present in the compression post and on the wiring. We had to leave the boat to run errands, and while we were gone, rain fell in epic proportions...and the post, the wiring, the spaces beneath them both...all bone dry.
In my case, water was entering between the cast aluminum piece and the stainless tray. It wicked through all the way to the standpipe and ran down the wires. I discovered that when I was hosing down the deck. You can easily check using Bill's method. Unfortunately, sealing the mast will not help you in that case and you'd have to pull your mast. Once pulled, it's an easy fix since the two screws holding down the mast step are lag bolts.
The two screws are unlikely to allow water to run down the wires since they do not go all the way through the deck.
I hope the water is not entering between the deck and the stainless tray, as that is a much more difficult fix. The bolts holding down the stainless plate are real bolts and only two of the nuts are readily accessible. On my boat, the other two are under the compression post and the bulkhead. Thumper at Pacific Seacraft told me that when they replace that part, they simply cut off the heads of the bolts.
Bill, reading your last paragraph again, it may well be that water runs down the wires under certain conditions of wind and rain. If it were the mast step, it would almost certainly leak a lot more in a downpour. If that's really so, then sealing the standpipe should fix the problem.
After some testing and monitoring in rainy weather, and soaking the accessible portions of the mast and step, I/we (the 'we' being myself and two riggers from Keys Rigging) have come to the conclusion that the caulk seal around the standpipe has failed.
We've had a few days of rainy weather here in the Keys, mostly rain squalls passing overnight, some with wind, and these have produced no results. So, we're monitoring things in rainy weather, etc., but will likely pull the rig at the next haulout to deal with it fully.
On the bright side, pun intended, we were able to repair our OGM anchor light while investigating the leak.
Thanks again for all the input.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
SailNet Community
1.7M posts
173.8K members
Since 1990
A forum community dedicated to Sailing, boating, cruising, racing & chartering. Come join the discussion about sailing, destinations, maintenance, repairs, navigation, electronics, classifieds and more