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Re: Hose Permeation

Out, why are you more worried about PVC below the waterline than hose. Both are a (slight) risk, if the thru hull is open, which mine never is, unless in the process of pumping out.


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Re: Hose Permeation

An electrician working on my house bent a bit of PVC conduit to fit in a curve that could not be accomplished with standard solvent weld fittings. It was a piece of art. I have re-plumbed my boat's sanitary system with hose, and I don't think I will ever do it again. It was a job from hell. My guess is that bent sch 40 PVC joined to the hose barbs on the head, tank, pump, valve, and seacock with rubber menders would be easier to accomplish and better in the end. Take a look at one of the hundreds of YouTube videos.
Warm, the PVC pipe is more flexible than sanitary hose.

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Re: Hose Permeation

Quote:
Originally Posted by wsmurdoch View Post
Warm, the PVC pipe is more flexible than sanitary hose.
To be fair, warm sanitary hose is quite flexible too.

The problem with heating and bending PVC pipe for sanitary plumbing is that it often isn't practical in an install. Few people can bend up a length of PVC to fit the curves and bends needed - then snake that bent up pipe through the chase area. Heating a bend in place can be problematic because you often can't move the ends of the pipe in a chase to make the bend.

I just use 30*, 45*, 60*, and 90* elbows as needed within a run. Piece the pipe together dry in the run so that it all fits and runs perfectly as you want it to be permanently installed, then make indexing marks on each adjoining piece with a sharpie. Be sure to account for the extra little bit of pipe length needed when the pipe seats deeper in a join when glued. Then just start at one end priming and gluing joints lining up the indexing marks.

I've heat bent quite a bit of PVC pipe for other projects, and find the above procedure faster and easier for plumbing in boats. However, if you have the free space to fit a continuous bent section of pipe, it is a cleaner install.

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Re: Hose Permeation

Our through hulls are usually left open. Weíre in areas where thereís no restrictions and no pump outs. I may need to rethink this but for now will continue to avoid pvc below the waterline. Iím a bit paranoid about through hulls and hoses. Crewed on a boat that nearly sunk because fitting was hit by improper storage next to it. I know Iíll do the right thing but I remain concerned about what others may do and me being unaware of their actions.
We leave the AC and genset ones closed while sailing unless in use. Thatís to prevent losing prime to the AC pump (although can prime it by other technique) and manufacturer says to close the genset one if not using it. So Iím not too paranoid about stuff.

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Re: Hose Permeation

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Our through hulls are usually left open. Weíre in areas where thereís no restrictions and no pump outs. I may need to rethink this but for now will continue to avoid pvc below the waterline. Iím a bit paranoid about through hulls and hoses. Crewed on a boat that nearly sunk because fitting was hit by improper storage next to it. I know Iíll do the right thing but I remain concerned about what others may do and me being unaware of their actions.
We leave the AC and genset ones closed while sailing unless in use. Thatís to prevent losing prime to the AC pump (although can prime it by other technique) and manufacturer says to close the genset one if not using it. So Iím not too paranoid about stuff.
Being on the Great Lakes, I have no need for overboard pumping. That makes me more comfortable with PVC plumbing. When we escape our inland ocean, I will reconsider.

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Re: Hose Permeation

I could rant about this forever, but I'll sum it up with my own rules that I mentally rant to the amalgam of boatbuilders in my mind when I'm fixing these things on my own boats.

1. All entrances & exits on the tank must be at the top, so that there is no possibility of sewage standing in any hose/pipe run. No exceptions! Bottom and sides of tank shall be completely integral without openings, not even plugs to fill the OEM holes.
2. Avoid hose if at all possible. Use PVC. Only use Saniflex if there must be hoses (Trident 102 failed on me after 5 months of holding standing sewage, and Saniflex is the same but easier to work with. PolyX might be better, but see #1 which makes the incremental hose improvement irrelevant).
3. Make the ******* vent fitting bigger than 5/8".
4. Install a ******* inspection and clean out port, and don't be cute about it. Make it beefy and preferably bolt-down, not a thin screw-in clear plastic deck plate.
5. Polyethelene tank with walls at least 3/8" thick. I don't care what anyone says, the plastic tanks can permeate. They flex like crazy if the vent gets blocked, and I'm convinced this introduces microfissures that can let stank escape. If there's a material better than polyethelene, use that.
6-10. See #1.
11. Some chemicals work. Yeah, yeah, oxygen, aerobic/anaerobic, blah blah blah -- even with the above steps adhered to, I still get a faint odor with no obvious source when my tank gets more than 1/3 full, at which point a generous serving of Happy Camper or No-Flex eliminates the odor. Another serving is needed at about 2/3 full. That's how I know it works: ceteris paribus; the chemical is the only difference between the odor state and the no-odor state.

After three boats where sanitation smells were only finally cured by adhering to these rules, I will only consider a future boat where the above are possible (or better still, already in place).
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Re: Hose Permeation

Quote:
Originally Posted by bajaking View Post
......11. Some chemicals work. Yeah, yeah, oxygen, aerobic/anaerobic, blah blah blah -- even with the above steps adhered to, I still get a faint odor with no obvious source when my tank gets more than 1/3 full, at which point a generous serving of Happy Camper or No-Flex eliminates the odor. Another serving is needed at about 2/3 full. That's how I know it works: ceteris paribus; the chemical is the only difference between the odor state and the no-odor state.....
There is absolutely no way that a polyethelene tank is going to permeated from water based waste. It would take a solvent of some kind, which is more likely to be introduced by adding chemicals. In many way, chemicals cause a dependency. They work, when you use them, but are subtly making it worse and increasing the need to use them the next time.

I'm no tree hugger, but my primary objection to chemicals is their eventual return to the environment in the waste. I think people's gross factor has overcome the logical debate on where recreational boating holding tanks can be safely discharged. Never in a harbor or anchorage, of course. It takes substantially less than three miles from shore to safely do so, I'm convinced. The stuff is dominantly biodegradable and every animal puts waste into the environment every day. I don't see the need to add a chemical, with proper system design and procedure.

I thought Happy Camper was just organic aerobic bacteria and not a chemical. Is that incorrect?
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Re: Hose Permeation

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post

...clip...

Every cruiser and pro I know who has gone to PVC would never go back to hose. Boatpoker on this forum recommends it over sanitation hose. Nigel Calder recommends it over sanitation hose, as does Steve D'Antonio, and Morgan's Cloud - for just a few. Don't know who your pros are, but these four are pretty knowledgable.


Mark
Add me to the list.

We replaced our hoses with PVC. They survived our wreck (3-5000
impacts over 3 days of storm). No head smell in 12 years. Highly
recommended.

The forward head, which I'd originally thought would be impossible,
turned out to be feasible with lots of joints, and some creative
vocabulary. The aft, which I originally thought would be a piece of
cake, I then thought couldn't be done at all, actually turned out
pretty simple.

However, I learned a bit along the way. As nobody's going to be
grading you on neatness, slop the crap (pardon the expression) out of
the joints with cleaner, and then with the glue, when you're making
the assembly (do it all dry first, of course, and allow for the full
depth of insertion as the glue will act as a lubricant, letting you
seat it fully where it won't go, dry).

I didn't do that in my forward head installation. As a result, I had
two very minor seeps at two joints after the incident (more below).
Those were cured with careful sanding and addition of, first, more
glue preceded by an acetone wipe (to clean and soften the plastic),
and followed by some penetrating epoxy (more flexible than laminating
or general-purpose epoxy) with a thickener added to keep it in place.
As I'm currently on the hard, I shut the thru-hull connection, opened
the anti-siphon valve (like you'd see in a laundry connection), and
poured water into the system until it was full (both toilet and hull
ends of the line), and waited a week. No seeps. The aft didn't leak
anywhere.

So, from that, I get...

First, if you think you're being ridiculous in your application of
cleaner and glue, and follow up each joint with swabs around the
perimeter for good measure, it's unlikely you'll ever have a leak.

Second, if there *is* a very small leak, it can be addressed, if you
can get to it. I'd originally thought I'd have to cut out the
offending joint - but even that's possible to do.

Meanwhile, as an establishment of the bona fides of this process, this
hard pipe stood up to huge hull flexing and pounding (impacts) - more
than you'll ever encounter in normal seagoing life. I estimate, based
on time and wave interval, that our hull took not less than 3000 and
probably more than 5000 huge crashes on rock. The flexing our hull
provided in her defense is totally awesome, and for which we're
without words to adequately express how grateful we are that was so.
From that I can provide my own assurances that, done right (joints
fully glued) and supported (no flailing around) that it's unlikely
you'll ever have to deal with that again.

Given the stench of the hose we took out (the good stuff), I'm very
happy to not have to face that thought in this boat's lifetime.

And, finally (you knew I'd get here, eventually, right??), for those
so inclined, my galleries have the gory details on the installations
of both heads' hard pipe, and I can give you the links if you like.
However, in general, I think the forward head (the more complex of the
two) was Feb06 in the refit gallery.

My apologies for these early galleries. There were a dozen major
projects going on at any time, and I had not yet started isolating
projects in separate galleries. As such, there are many intervening
pictures of other stuff going on which you'll have to slog through to
get them all..

Now Ė as to the pix themselves:

Pictures: Flying Pig Early Refit + Projects/Early_Major_Alterations_Work/04-05

Pictures start in this album; they are of the forward head, which is
actually a much more complicated installation than the aft. They
continue into the next gallery, which is

Pictures: Flying Pig Early Refit + Projects/Early_Major_Alterations_Work/04-26&27-05

where you can see the installed product.

This is another start point link:

Forward PVC start

Pictures: Flying Pig Early Refit + Projects/Finishing_Touches-Readying_To_Splash/5-06-Early

Keep the pipes clean, as well as free of scale. Flush aggressively -
all the while anything's going in the toilet, and then a calculated
full-length rinse (enough water in pump strokes to replace the volume
in the pipes), followed by a similar volume of air. We use 20
strokes each after the continuous flushing under way... The
aggressive rinsing makes sure no urine remains in sea water, which is
what clogs the pipes/hoses with scale. The dry pumps go until the
through hull burps...

If your anti-siphon valve is in working order, what you get is a very
small amount of water at the duckbill/joker valve (the water doesn't
entirely go out with a dry pump), and the rest of the entirety bone
dry. What you have will be, essentially, a dry stack.

The few times we've had to get into our system, even the exit
end is not only clean and scale free, but dry, as proven when we
closed the through hull valve in order to disassemble it. For an
example of that, see this pic, 5 years after installation - it's the
end of the forward head PVC at the Y valve:

Pictures: Flying Pig 2013-2014 Shakedown/Y-Valve and Hose

If there's nothing in it, your pipes can't possibly smell. Use a
rubber sleeve/coupler designed for repairs to drain lines to seal the
joints between toilet/pipe and pipe/Y-or-exit. I made a very careful
butt fit so that the pipe was tight against the hose fitting; a small
section of hose brings the outside diameter to the same as the PVC.
Couplings then slide over both sections, with hose clamps at the ends.
I added another hose clamp at the butt joint; if that somehow wasn't
secure, the ends would prevent against leakage, but in my experience,
there is none, anyway. Getting into it is merely a matter of loosening
the clamps, twisting the coupling to release any pressure-induced
sticky, and slide it up the PVC. Reverse install/replace.

You can see an example of that when I replaced my overboard Y-valve
(holding tank or straight through):

Pictures: Flying Pig 2013-2014 Shakedown/Y-Valve and Hose

So, if you have the time and the inclination, you can replace your
sanitary hose with PVC, and be done with smelly pipe forever. If you
prefer to keep hose, to keep it fresh and scale free, follow the
procedure above about pumping. FWIW, I credit Peggie Hall, the
Princess of Poop, with that concept, LOOOOONG ago, on an NNTP
newsgroup, rec.boats.cruising. You can still find her on the
internet, but she's no longer on newsgroups. She has also written
several books on marine sanitation and controlling boat odors. Highly
recommended.

L8R

Skip

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now.
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Re: Hose Permeation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
There is absolutely no way that a polyethelene tank is going to permeated from water based waste. It would take a solvent of some kind, which is more likely to be introduced by adding chemicals. In many way, chemicals cause a dependency. They work, when you use them, but are subtly making it worse and increasing the need to use them the next time.

I'm no tree hugger, but my primary objection to chemicals is their eventual return to the environment in the waste. I think people's gross factor has overcome the logical debate on where recreational boating holding tanks can be safely discharged. Never in a harbor or anchorage, of course. It takes substantially less than three miles from shore to safely do so, I'm convinced. The stuff is dominantly biodegradable and every animal puts waste into the environment every day. I don't see the need to add a chemical, with proper system design and procedure.

I thought Happy Camper was just organic aerobic bacteria and not a chemical. Is that incorrect?
Your use of the words chemicals suggests a part of the problem here. People don't know or understand what products contain. You appear not to know what the specific chemicals are that you are complaining about, and thus by extension, which product contain them and what they could or could not do.

Some of the old school treatments (Aquakem Blue for example) use either formaldehyde or bronopol. They are biodegradable, but they are also solvents and antiseptics. Some use quatrenary amines.

Most of the newer treatments (Camco, Odorlos) use nitrate, which in this context is not a chemical (more like a nutrient).

No, happy camper is not bacterial. It is an inorganic chemical (zinc sulfate monohydrate) that acts as an antimicrobial. It is considered marine toxic by DOT, according to the labeling. Probably harmless offshore, but not something you want to spill in freshwater or a marina (toxic to fish at a few ppm). It is not biodegradeable.

---

It's not actually about biodegradation. The 3-mile limit is simply an artifact of the legal framework of jurisdiction. The concern is resistant pathogens, like vibro (cholera) that can survive in seawater.

Noflex is similar to Oxiclean (sodium percarbonate), which acts as an oxygen source, preventing anaerobic smells.

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Re: Hose Permeation

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
Your use of the words chemicals suggests a part of the problem here. People don't know or understand what products contain. You appear not to know what the specific chemicals are that you are complaining about, and thus by extension, which product contain them and what they could or could not do......
Your reply sure comes across with a rather arrogant tone. I don't think one needs to put anything in their holding tank, so sorting out the ingredients wasn't my point.

Don't flush additives. They are unnecessary and are likely cause more harm than good.

For a time, I used Raritan KO, but it was all psychological. A properly designed, well used and cycled holding tank will perform just fine on it's own. The problems are almost always pilot error.


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