Rule 18.3 - SailNet Community
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 12 Old 02-23-2015 Thread Starter
Windseeker
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oceanside CA
Posts: 177
Thanks: 3
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Rule 18.3

Question for you rules people!

Port tack boat inside the zone crosses clean in front of a starboard tack boat right on the edge of the zone (possibly outside). She then bears down to the mark passing close-hauled, i.e. comfortably ahead. Because she is slow the starboard tack boat, within the zone now, gains an overlap on the inside of the tacker who is bearing away in front of her and the pesky bugger calls for room.

Is the starboard tacker entitled to room despite being clearly behind on entry to the zone?

Is there any discrepancy if they would or would not have to sail above closehauled to clear the port tacker's transom?

Is there discrepancy if the starboard tacker is inside the zone when the port tacker enters the zone?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
theonecalledtom is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 Old 02-23-2015
Sailboat Reboot
 
svzephyr44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On Board
Posts: 652
Thanks: 4
Thanked 52 Times in 45 Posts
Rep Power: 20
 
Send a message via Skype™ to svzephyr44
Re: Rule 18.3

Best blog every on the rules of racing

Racing Rules of Sailing - Look to Windward

CAPT Roger J. Jones USN (ret.)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Sailboat Reboot

411 Walnut Street, #9700, Green Cove Springs, FL 32043-3443

Reboot's Agent's Email:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Web Site:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Blogging:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Twitter @Sailboat_Reboot
svzephyr44 is offline  
post #3 of 12 Old 02-23-2015 Thread Starter
Windseeker
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oceanside CA
Posts: 177
Thanks: 3
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Rule 18.3

That is a good blog - I've been there before.

My interpretation of 18.3, apprently not shared by all hence the question here, is:

Is the starboard tacker entitled to room despite being clearly behind on entry to the zone?
>>> Yes

Is there any discrepancy if they would or would not have to sail above closehauled to clear the port tacker's transom?
>>>> No, but being forced to sail above close hauled is a penalty in its own right even though the port tacker did tack cleanly in front (would be a great and annoying tack outside the zone)

Is there discrepancy if the starboard tacker is inside the zone when the port tacker enters the zone?
>>>> No. They merely need to be fetching the mark. The aim is to avoid pile ups on crowded windwark marks resulting in lots of luffing boats drifting into the mark and each other.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
theonecalledtom is offline  
 
post #4 of 12 Old 02-23-2015
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,460
Thanks: 12
Thanked 80 Times in 78 Posts
Rep Power: 18
 
Re: Rule 18.3

I believe Rule 18, relating to room at a mark, applies only to boats on the same tack. If I understand your fact situation correctly, the boats were on opposite tacks throughout.

I think your question is answered at the following link. Racing Rules of Sailing: Overlaps that Begin Inside the Zone | Sailing World
Scroll down to the paragraph that begins: "Situations where Rule 18.3(b) requires...."
Sailormon6 is online now  
post #5 of 12 Old 02-24-2015 Thread Starter
Windseeker
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oceanside CA
Posts: 177
Thanks: 3
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
My reading is that that backs up my response above. I'm just trying to verify that I'm not boxed into a mental corner here thinking that gaining a late overlap on a tacker inside the zone is fine and they owe you room.

It's confusing enough trying to keep safe and smooth on crowded rounding a without me shouting incorrect interpretations of rules at everyone!
theonecalledtom is offline  
post #6 of 12 Old 02-24-2015
Senior Member
 
paulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 3,324
Thanks: 4
Thanked 86 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 20
 
Re: Rule 18.3

Thought I had responded to this earlier, but it apparently got swallowed in the Internet. I find the situation difficult to picture based on the OP's description. If P, inside the 3-boatlength zone, passes "clean in front" of S, and then "heads down" to round the mark, does that mean they are leaving the mark to starboard and that P overstood? Is it a leeward mark? It is mentioned that P is involved in tacking, but only after being "comfortably ahead". The description is not clear.
Based on the subsequent discussion, a possible scenario is that P passes ahead of S and then tacks, and then heads off to round as close as possible to the windward mark. If S secures an inside overlap and calls for room (even though it is too late, once inside of the 3-length zone to call for room) perhaps P tacked too close. But then both boats are on starboard tack, no? If it is a windward mark, and S is fetching it, then doesn't P (who after tacking becomes W, for Windward) need to keep clear of S, who is Leeward? This is why you don't approach the windward mark on port tack: you can get into trouble. S does not get room, but if she is fetching the mark she IS entitled to rights as leeward boat. 18.3 does not apply here, since there was no overlap at the 3 boatlength zone limit. P (who becomes W) cannot cut S (who beomes L) off if S is fetching the mark.

Last edited by paulk; 02-24-2015 at 11:04 PM.
paulk is offline  
post #7 of 12 Old 02-25-2015
Remember you're a womble
 
PaulinVictoria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sooke, BC
Posts: 2,328
Thanks: 11
Thanked 64 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Rule 18.3

This is why I do foredeck instead of helm/tactics People at the blunt end shout, people at the pointy end do things.

Orange Crush
1974 C&C27 MkII

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PaulinVictoria is offline  
post #8 of 12 Old 02-25-2015
Moderator
 
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London!
Posts: 6,931
Thanks: 69
Thanked 309 Times in 280 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Dock
Re: Rule 18.3

This pic from 2 days ago at the start of the Caribbean 600 mile race

Wooden boat on starboard. White boat on port.

White boat dismasted after wooden boat clipped the backstay.

Great photo, but have a look in the background: the red boat cant tack, and the starboard white boat may not be able to see the dismasted boat... Could get tricky.
Attached Thumbnails
image.jpg  

Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


People can say they want freedom, but offer them the keys to what chains them, a map to where they want to go,
And they'll turn it down for the cell they know

Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 02-25-2015 at 01:54 AM.
MarkofSeaLife is offline  
post #9 of 12 Old 02-25-2015
Remember you're a womble
 
PaulinVictoria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sooke, BC
Posts: 2,328
Thanks: 11
Thanked 64 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Rule 18.3

I think bowman on red boat can see S-white and thinks they have them crossed safely, foreshortening of the lens probably makes that look closer than it is. Rest of them, I predict lots of shouting, raising of flags and wiggling of cravats in the club afterwards. Not sure what grey is doing topless in the background either.
MarkofSeaLife likes this.

Orange Crush
1974 C&C27 MkII

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PaulinVictoria is offline  
post #10 of 12 Old 02-25-2015
Water Lover
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA (Heron, Elephant Butte lakes); Arizona (Lake Pleasant)
Posts: 773
Thanks: 3
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Rule 18.3

If I were running a protest hearing or arbitration you'd be cross-examined until the original description makes much more sense.
Rule 18 applies to boats on different tacks at offwind marks, but not at windward marks. So knowing what kind of mark is there might be useful.
"Bears down passing close hauled" doesn't give me that great a picture of what port did relative to starboard, the mark, and the zone. No comprendo. Diagram, pretty please.
Because I don't know for sure whether maybe port tacked in the zone and thus might have, loosely put, given up her overlap rounding privileges, if she had any in the first place. Rule 18.3 is about "tacking in the zone". So, did port pass head to wind, while within the zone or not? Yes or no? And if yes, did port give mark room if needed or affect starboard's navigation in what way? When were there overlaps made and broken? Did anyone call the overlaps made or broken? What exactly did the witnesses say they saw?
Although hails aren't required or recognized here, they can be useful in these situations.
Based on the information so far presented, both Parties owe the protest committee beer for not presenting a clear case.
rgscpat is offline  
Reply

Tags
18.3 , racing , right of way , room , rules

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
You guys rule! abrahamx General Discussion (sailing related) 1 08-03-2013 07:32 PM
Rule 10 and rule 18? JohnnyJupiter Racing 11 08-28-2012 02:44 PM
Gaffers rule Capt Len Introduce Yourself 2 10-14-2011 01:34 PM
The Rule of 60 John Rousmaniere Her Sailnet Articles 0 08-08-2004 09:00 PM
New Handicap Rule paulk Racing 2 01-17-2003 03:07 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome