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post #71 of 87 Old 04-12-2019
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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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On the race course, particularly buoy racing, the participants don't adhere to a strict interpretation of ColRegs, they are adhering to Racing Rules of Sailing.
Well, they still have to adhere to a strict interpretation of the ColRegs in relation to all vessels not participating in the race, something we all know gets forgotten, or flat out ignored at times.
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post #72 of 87 Old 04-12-2019
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Re: Non Racing Sailors

Yeah, rule 14. Avoid collision. It's one of the first RRS they emphasize when discussing any situation in clinics, talks, whatever.
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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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Well, they still have to adhere to a strict interpretation of the ColRegs in relation to all vessels not participating in the race, something we all know gets forgotten, or flat out ignored at times.
That's a pretty broad generalization. "Those damn crazy racers!!" Well, there is a common courtesy thing that maybe one doesn't try to mosey through the race course unless absolutely necessary. Especially on a buoy race. I know the sailors I race with obey the RRS and ColRegs when on the course. We have had a few power boats think its a grand thing to mosey through us. Most people though know we are going to be out there because we have been doing it for over 50 years. We get spectators in power & sail on the edge of the courses. Its not hard to figure out where the "lines" are. And no, we do not take up the whole lake as that would be not a good neighbor thing to do.

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post #74 of 87 Old 04-12-2019
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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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That's a pretty broad generalization. "Those damn crazy racers!!" Well, there is a common courtesy thing that maybe one doesn't try to mosey through the race course unless absolutely necessary. Especially on a buoy race. I know the sailors I race with obey the RRS and ColRegs when on the course. We have had a few power boats think its a grand thing to mosey through us. Most people though know we are going to be out there because we have been doing it for over 50 years. We get spectators in power & sail on the edge of the courses. Its not hard to figure out where the "lines" are. And no, we do not take up the whole lake as that would be not a good neighbor thing to do.
The truth hurts.

I was a commercial seaman for 20 years. Ships navigator. Yes, I well know racers expectation is for every one else to do the courteous thing and go around their race. Even if it forces 700 foot ships into the rocks.

The courteous thing to do would not set up race courses in busy harbours, channels, ferry routes and commercial shipping lanes. But no, its every one else who is supposed to be courteous.

I don't know how many times I have had to alter ships courses in designated channels while some red faced beered up racer screams "can't you see I am racing here.".
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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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Yeah, rule 14. Avoid collision. It's one of the first RRS they emphasize when discussing any situation in clinics, talks, whatever.
Yes, of course, but that doesnt mean you are not going to take advantage of your right to luff the weather boats over the line before the start, or take the inside line on a mark rounding etc. It is up to the boat that does not have right of way to avoid the collision, as long as you give them "room and opportunity" to keep clear.

That's the difference. The recreational sailor is likely going to waive their right of way to err on the side of caution, (assuming they even KNOW they have RoW). A serious racer is going to take full advantage of their rights.

Many incidents are a result of both parties believing they have rights.



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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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The truth hurts.

I was a commercial seaman for 20 years. Ships navigator. Yes, I well know racers expectation is for every one else to do the courteous thing and go around their race. Even if it forces 700 foot ships into the rocks.

The courteous thing to do would not set up race courses in busy harbours, channels, ferry routes and commercial shipping lanes. But no, its every one else who is supposed to be courteous.

I don't know how many times I have had to alter ships courses in designated channels while some red faced beered up racer screams "can't you see I am racing here.".
This is more to do with the race committee and how they set up the course. But, yeah, sure, all us racers are dicks. Surprised it took this long for this BS to come up.

I should know better than to try to contribute to these sorts of threads with the positive things that my racing club has and does for the sport of sailing. Always comes down to how much a bunch of a-holes all racers are.

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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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This is more to do with the race committee and how they set up the course. But, yeah, sure, all us racers are dicks. Surprised it took this long for this BS to come up.

I should know better than to try to contribute to these sorts of threads with the positive things that my racing club has and does for the sport of sailing. Always comes down to how much a bunch of a-holes all racers are.
Why are you taking this personally. The sport has a well established reputation. It goes right to the very top of the sport. Yes, I agree. Race committees share the blame. Would you go night fishing any where the Volvo Ocean Race?
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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
The truth hurts.

I was a commercial seaman for 20 years. Ships navigator. Yes, I well know racers expectation is for every one else to do the courteous thing and go around their race. Even if it forces 700 foot ships into the rocks.

The courteous thing to do would not set up race courses in busy harbours, channels, ferry routes and commercial shipping lanes. But no, its every one else who is supposed to be courteous.

I don't know how many times I have had to alter ships courses in designated channels while some red faced beered up racer screams "can't you see I am racing here.".
Painting all racers with such a broad brush based on your experiences negates your experience.

I am sure there are quite a few "Wyatt Earp" large boat operators as well as navigators. Maybe even some of their fopahs have been documented as they crashed into other ships or fixed objects like rocks. I would not expand that to mean all large ship seaman are less than competent bullies using their large ships to demand the right of way. I have been bulldozed out of the way by a few tugboats pushing barges as they charge through groups of fishing or sailing boats on the Chesapeake when a small course deviation miles before would have seen them cruise the edges of them.

My experience has been the contrary with both groups being poor seaman or rules followers . Most exercise courtesy.

Racing in most cases I have seen ultra teaches most sailors the rules of the road. The first being of course safety of your crew as well as a other boats,

Many large ship seaman have great manners as both boats share the same waterway together. I have talked to many captains over the VHF on the Southern Chessie and off shore when contacted by them when we have crossing paths. Most are extreme professionals and make suggestions as to their or my boats movements to avoid any possible collisions.

Sounds to me you thought you as. commercial vessel believe you had ultimate rights of the water with small sailing vessels you contacted, thus your apparent bitterness to a few instances where a few racers crossed your path bringing out your ire.

Personally I don't force a larger less navigable ship to charge it's course in close quarters.


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Re: Non Racing Sailors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
The truth hurts.

I was a commercial seaman for 20 years. Ships navigator. Yes, I well know racers expectation is for every one else to do the courteous thing and go around their race. Even if it forces 700 foot ships into the rocks.

The courteous thing to do would not set up race courses in busy harbours, channels, ferry routes and commercial shipping lanes. But no, its every one else who is supposed to be courteous.

I don't know how many times I have had to alter ships courses in designated channels while some red faced beered up racer screams "can't you see I am racing here.".
Operating an 80-foot three-masted schooner in Charleston Harbor, 3 times a day 7 days a week in the season, we occasionally ran afoul of a 'cowboy' racer who loved to use the schooner like a fence to a horse wishing to rid itself of its rider.
One call to the harbor authority, who would call the appropriate club or race organizer and threaten to ban all racing in the harbor (force them to race offshore) would end the idiocy for a while.
Really, I didn't care if they wanted to bash their little plastic toys into my big heavy steel schooner, but I thought that the resulting USCG investigation would be rather bothersome and I preferred to avoid it.
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post #80 of 87 Old 04-12-2019
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Re: Non Racing Sailors

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Painting all racers with such a broad brush based on your experiences negates your experience.

I am sure there are quite a few "Wyatt Earp" large boat operators as well as navigators. Maybe even some of their fopahs have been documented as they crashed into other ships or fixed objects like rocks. I would not expand that to mean all large ship seaman are less than competent bullies using their large ships to demand the right of way. I have been bulldozed out of the way by a few tugboats pushing barges as they charge through groups of fishing or sailing boats on the Chesapeake when a small course deviation miles before would have seen them cruise the edges of them.

My experience has been the contrary with both groups being poor seaman or rules followers . Most exercise courtesy.

Racing in most cases I have seen ultra teaches most sailors the rules of the road. The first being of course safety of your crew as well as a other boats,

Many large ship seaman have great manners as both boats share the same waterway together. I have talked to many captains over the VHF on the Southern Chessie and off shore when contacted by them when we have crossing paths. Most are extreme professionals and make suggestions as to their or my boats movements to avoid any possible collisions.

Sounds to me you thought you as. commercial vessel believe you had ultimate rights of the water with small sailing vessels you contacted, thus your apparent bitterness to a few instances where a few racers crossed your path bringing out your ire.

Personally I don't force a larger less navigable ship to charge it's course in close quarters.
I don't know whose post you read, but it wasn't mine. I said the colregs get forgotten or ignored "at times". It's true. They do. I myself race. I have worked at a couple of the biggest yacht clubs in Canada. I know what happens.

I am not sure whose eyes you ultra defensive guys are trying to pull the wool over, or maybe you just haven't seen how the big regatta interact with shipping and cruising traffic?

Maybe I struck a nerve?

Deny all you want. It happens. A lot.
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