Dehler 39 racing........pointing - SailNet Community
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post #1 of 18 Old 07-26-2019 Thread Starter
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Unhappy Dehler 39 racing........pointing

HELP: Does anybody herein have a Dehler 39 that they race.

I am the new owner of a 2000 Dehler 39 that I race in club mid week twilights and winter mini series races.

The problem I am seeking help with is 'pointing'.

We are having difficulties getting the boat to point high and are getting out pointed by the likes of Bavaria 38 cruisers which I believe shouldn't be the case.

My sails are new.

How much tension should the back stay have?

Over to you Guys ....................
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post #2 of 18 Old 07-26-2019
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

Nice boat! that is bit of a big question. Because you asked about back stay tension I know you need to do a little reading about race tuning of the rig and sails.
First which keel? deep or shallow draft? what size is the jib? type of mainsail battens? full or partial? Are the sails designed for racing? Basics of rig tune is the shrouds and any side stays are to keep the mast in column and straight side to side. the forestay length is to set the mast rack to balance the helm at a given wind velocity. The back stay tension is set to adjust the luff curve of the forestay to match the luff curve for the sail that you are flying. as the wind increases the backstay tension is increased to control the increase in forestay curve to the desired curve. With a 100% jib you may find that you can use jib sheet inhalers to help pointing because on the newer wide boats with a wide the cabin this prevents the deck mounted jib tracked being place a the best location for good pointing.
Blue line with ring to pull the sheet inboard to close the slot.
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

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Originally Posted by overbored View Post
Nice boat! that is bit of a big question. Because you asked about back stay tension I know you need to do a little reading about race tuning of the rig and sails.
First which keel? deep or shallow draft? what size is the jib? type of mainsail battens? full or partial? Are the sails designed for racing? Basics of rig tune is the shrouds and any side stays are to keep the mast in column and straight side to side. the forestay length is to set the mast rack to balance the helm at a given wind velocity. The back stay tension is set to adjust the luff curve of the forestay to match the luff curve for the sail that you are flying. as the wind increases the backstay tension is increased to control the increase in forestay curve to the desired curve. With a 100% jib you may find that you can use jib sheet inhalers to help pointing because on the newer wide boats with a wide the cabin this prevents the deck mounted jib tracked being place a the best location for good pointing.
Blue line with ring to pull the sheet inboard to close the slot.
Firstly overbored..........thanks for your interest and quick reply.

Keel: Deep but not the 39 Q keel.

Jib/headsail: 140% 48sqm by Rolly Tasker Tri Radial cut Newport Pro Radial cloth on a roller furler.

Main: By Far East Sails using DP laminate cloth Tri Radial cut with racer/cruiser roach with one full batten and 3 partial.

Regards
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

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Originally Posted by EXILE View Post
My sails are new.

How much tension should the back stay have?

Over to you Guys ....................
Did you buy the boat with new sails or did you buy the sails from a local sailmaker?

If the latter, talk to your sailmaker, he should be able to help you in many ways beyond just pointing. When I raced boats in your size category the sailmaker would show up and help analyze your boat and sail quiver to tell you which new sails would make you more competitive.

After you buy a new sail the sailmaker should show up on a race day and help you take advantage of the new sail. Your boat will suddenly be faster, but that will mostly go away when the sailmaker leaves your boat.
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West Wight Potter 14 "Lemon Drop"
Oceanside CA
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post #5 of 18 Old 07-29-2019
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

Hey,

Some more information and questions:

1. Prop - is yours fixed, folding, or feathering? If you have a fixed prop your performance will REALLY suffer.

2. Wind conditions - the lighter the wind the harder it is to point high. in 5 kts you'll be lucky to get to 45 degrees Apparent Wind Angle (AWA). At 15 kts you should be able to point higher than 40 AWA

3. Halyard tension - do you adjust for weather conditions? Light air = light halyard tension. Heavy air requires more halyard to flatten the sail.

4. Rig stuff - with a 140 headsail the clew will be aft of the spreaders. How narrow or wide is your sheeting angle? If the sail can't come in past the spreaders or shrouds it will be difficult to trim the head sail all the way in.

5. Rig stuff continued: Main sheet and traveler. Do you have a traveler and if so where is it? coachroof, bridge deck, or at the boom end? Boom end is the best.

6. Backstay - There should be enough tension on the backstay so that the forestay does not sag.

6. When going to max point in decent wind (8-10 kts) you need to have the headsail trimmed in hard. The main sheet should be on very hard. Then you use the traveler to get the boom up to the centerline.

if you have those settings you should able to point as high as your boat will allow. Certainly higher than any cruising boat. Not as high as serious racing boats.

Lastly, it takes time to get the boat to point. Don't just trim everything in and then steer to 40 degrees AWA. First build speed. Get the water flowing over the keel and rudder. Once you have decent speed then head up, trim in, head up, trim in. it's a gradual process that takes 30 seconds or so.

Next time you're out take some pictures of your sails. Aim straight up the mast. Also not the wind speed and your AWA.

Good luck,
Barry

Barry Lenoble
Deep Blue C, 2002 C&C 110
Mt. Sinai, NY

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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryL View Post
Hey,

Some more information and questions:

1. Prop - is yours fixed, folding, or feathering? If you have a fixed prop your performance will REALLY suffer.

2. Wind conditions - the lighter the wind the harder it is to point high. in 5 kts you'll be lucky to get to 45 degrees Apparent Wind Angle (AWA). At 15 kts you should be able to point higher than 40 AWA

3. Halyard tension - do you adjust for weather conditions? Light air = light halyard tension. Heavy air requires more halyard to flatten the sail.

4. Rig stuff - with a 140 headsail the clew will be aft of the spreaders. How narrow or wide is your sheeting angle? If the sail can't come in past the spreaders or shrouds it will be difficult to trim the head sail all the way in.

5. Rig stuff continued: Main sheet and traveler. Do you have a traveler and if so where is it? coachroof, bridge deck, or at the boom end? Boom end is the best.

6. Backstay - There should be enough tension on the backstay so that the forestay does not sag.

6. When going to max point in decent wind (8-10 kts) you need to have the headsail trimmed in hard. The main sheet should be on very hard. Then you use the traveler to get the boom up to the centerline.

if you have those settings you should able to point as high as your boat will allow. Certainly higher than any cruising boat. Not as high as serious racing boats.

Lastly, it takes time to get the boat to point. Don't just trim everything in and then steer to 40 degrees AWA. First build speed. Get the water flowing over the keel and rudder. Once you have decent speed then head up, trim in, head up, trim in. it's a gradual process that takes 30 seconds or so.

Next time you're out take some pictures of your sails. Aim straight up the mast. Also not the wind speed and your AWA.

Good luck,
Barry
Hi Barry.............firstly thanks for your reply.
Now:
1.'Flexofold' folding.
2.We find it harder to point in the higher winds.
3.With the halyard it has been basically set tight at the start/setup and leave.
4. We have no probs sheeting the headsail in tight and we run with the telltales.
5. Mainsheet traveller is at the boom end.
6. Backstay to forestay....will check this Saturday when out on the water.
7. Wind strength.........8-10 kts is light in my neck of the woods, somewhere between 12 to 20 is the norm, especially in summer.

Will see if we can improve this Saturday with some changes to what we have been doing and checking out your tips.

Keep you posted.
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

A Dehler 39's PHRF rating of 84 is pretty quick. You should be upset to be outpointed by a Bavaria that rates around 120. My first idea was that you'd bought a used boat and the sail was blown out. New sails should come with a sailmaker who will race with you to see what's going on and to set things up properly. Your waterline and sail area should be performing upwind as well as down. Your shrouds seem fairly well inboard, so barber haulers may help - but it depends upon the cut of the jib and how much backwind using them might cause in the main.
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryL View Post
Hey,

Some more information and questions:

1. Prop - is yours fixed, folding, or feathering? If you have a fixed prop your performance will REALLY suffer.

2. Wind conditions - the lighter the wind the harder it is to point high. in 5 kts you'll be lucky to get to 45 degrees Apparent Wind Angle (AWA). At 15 kts you should be able to point higher than 40 AWA

3. Halyard tension - do you adjust for weather conditions? Light air = light halyard tension. Heavy air requires more halyard to flatten the sail.

4. Rig stuff - with a 140 headsail the clew will be aft of the spreaders. How narrow or wide is your sheeting angle? If the sail can't come in past the spreaders or shrouds it will be difficult to trim the head sail all the way in.

5. Rig stuff continued: Main sheet and traveler. Do you have a traveler and if so where is it? coachroof, bridge deck, or at the boom end? Boom end is the best.

6. Backstay - There should be enough tension on the backstay so that the forestay does not sag.

6. When going to max point in decent wind (8-10 kts) you need to have the headsail trimmed in hard. The main sheet should be on very hard. Then you use the traveler to get the boom up to the centerline.

if you have those settings you should able to point as high as your boat will allow. Certainly higher than any cruising boat. Not as high as serious racing boats.

Lastly, it takes time to get the boat to point. Don't just trim everything in and then steer to 40 degrees AWA. First build speed. Get the water flowing over the keel and rudder. Once you have decent speed then head up, trim in, head up, trim in. it's a gradual process that takes 30 seconds or so.

Next time you're out take some pictures of your sails. Aim straight up the mast. Also not the wind speed and your AWA.

Good luck,
Barry
Hi Barry..............firstly thank you for your reply.

Now:

1. 'Flexofold' folding prop.
2. Should.
3. Halyard tension........have only been tight setting at the start/setup with no further adjustment with wind changes.
4. Have no probs sheeting in the Headsail and we run by the telltales.
5. Mainsheet traveler is at the aft end below the boom.
6. Will check the backstay tension in relation to the forestay (which is a furler) in this Saturdays race.
7. In my neck of the woods 8-10 kts is light wind as most of the wind we sail in(especially summer) is 12 - 20 kts.
8. Will do a bit more 'tweaking' this Saturday a see what happens.

Thanks.
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post
A Dehler 39's PHRF rating of 84 is pretty quick. You should be upset to be outpointed by a Bavaria that rates around 120. My first idea was that you'd bought a used boat and the sail was blown out. New sails should come with a sailmaker who will race with you to see what's going on and to set things up properly. Your waterline and sail area should be performing upwind as well as down. Your shrouds seem fairly well inboard, so barber haulers may help - but it depends upon the cut of the jib and how much backwind using them might cause in the main.
Thanks for your feedback Paulk............

When one buys ones sails overseas at a considerably better price they don't come with an onboard sailmaker to give his 2cents worth.

Btw in light airs downwind we outrun 43' and 50' Beneteaus
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post #10 of 18 Old 07-30-2019
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Re: Dehler 39 racing........pointing

Maybe a silly question but are you trying to point before you get your speed up? I always had that tendency. I was told by my mentor "speed first point second".
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