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post #831 of 1164 Old 05-04-2017
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

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Yes, having lived with m Volvo sail drive for 15 years with no troubles at all I am partial to them.
Perhaps if you had suffered some trouble, and some will no matter how reliable, you'd feel differently. Hard to think, with four of them, one won't get their attention.

The expensive parts reputation is not really warranted on routine items, such as filters, as you must know. However, venture into the less routine and it can be breathtaking. I just decided I would replace all the 12 yr old rubber hoses on my Volvo. Most are preformed, so can't be replaced with generic straight hose. Total cost for fresh and raw water was almost $900. If money is no object, I also had to wait a month for inventory.

My injectors must be cleaned every 400 hrs, which for us is about every 4-5 years. The engine begins to smoke if you delay. I wanted a spare set, so I wouldn't be forced to do this in the off season. Nearly $500 per injector, there are four. The turbocharger is $3k and non-serviceable. Asked me how I know that.

I will say, however, when running well, it runs much smoother and at lower RPMs per HP than its equivalent Yanmar.

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But in this case my client wanted a simple marine diesel, not a common rail type. We knew the hp we needed and the task was to find four identical non common rail diesels. We found four Volvos. Simple as that. Client wants to minimize dependency on computer chips. This what custom design is all about.
Are all the equivalent Yanmars common rail? I agree with the point, if they are. Sailboats should have neither common rail nor turbos! Simpler the better.


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post #832 of 1164 Old 05-04-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

I really don't want to sound like I am lecturing but sometimes I think some of you don't really understand the design/builder/client dynamic:

My client owned a trucking company among other companies. He sold the trucking company for an extraordinary amount of money. I'll just leave it at that. He knows diesel engines very well. He has bought hundreds of them, probably thousands. I am comfortable letting my client make this decision.

Keep in mind, that as the designer it is not my job to tell the client what to buy. It's my job to advise. But every client has his bailiwick ( cricket term) of comfort in certain areas where he feels in control. In this case my client is comfortable with diesel engines. The design. build team works with the client to make sure the client is well informed so that he can make his own decisions.

Do not think for a moment that the choice of engines was a knee jerk decision. Many hours of discussions were involved.
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post #833 of 1164 Old 05-04-2017
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

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Would love to hear the rationale for the Volvo. I have one and I'm fine with it. For a variety of reasons, however, I would not likely pick one from scratch, if I didn't have to.
I agree with @bobperry about doing what the client wants. That doesn't mean it always makes sense.

Much depends on the cruising grounds. Parts availability and all that.

In my opinion saildrives are a very bad thing. Start with the really big hole in the bottom of the boat which makes seal replacement a regular maintenance item.

Add the seals in the leg which in some models have manufacturer replacement periods as short as 100 hours.

I understand the attraction to builders - you avoid all the alignment issues. Drop it in and you're done. There is no benefit to the owner.

There are very few design/build things that are non-starters for me. Saildrives are one of those few.

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post #834 of 1164 Old 05-04-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

Having lived with a sail drive for 15 years and never replaced the seal, although I did buy on just in case, I would prefer sail drives for all of my new designs. I have done many, more than I can count, and never had an issue. My boat was built in 1978. My Volvo and sail drive were things I knew I could count on.

My philosophy is that if you are going to take advice take it from someone who has lived with the component in question. People ask me all the time "What do you think of,,,,,?" I say, I have no opinion. I have not lived with the item."

A quick way to end this debate would be to ask Auspicious how many boats he has owned with saildrives? I suspect I can guess.

"100 hours" on a seal before replacement is not reliable information. I'll skip the barnyard reference.
Benefits to the owner include performance in reverse, low drag and lack of vibration.
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Last edited by bobperry; 05-04-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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post #835 of 1164 Old 05-04-2017
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

I am stationed just up the way in Oak Harbor and would love to swing by and take a peek some time. This sort of boat will always be out of my price range being Enlisted, but one can dream. If that is not to much of an Imposition.

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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

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.....I am comfortable letting my client make this decision....
Got it. Not an issue for me. First I'm hearing it was the client's decision for the Volvo. I thought I heard they were your preference and the client wanted simple.

Has your client ever had a Volvo saildrive before?


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post #837 of 1164 Old 05-04-2017
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

as always, enjoy the photo updates. Really coming together nicely. Exciting!

I like the wood work and looking forward to seeing the finished boat(s).

Daniel
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

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A quick way to end this debate would be to ask Auspicious how many boats he has owned with saildrives? I suspect I can guess.
The 100 hour service requirement reference was straight from the manual of a saildrive on a boat I delivered for the seals in the leg, not the hull seal. That boat had a seal failure offshore and the gear oil and sea water swapped places. That wasn't good.

On every boat I have delivered with a saildrive I have checked the gear oil. Easily half have been tan and foamy. You should know what that means.

Pretty much everything works when it is new. I understand the attraction of saildrives for builders and they are surely fine for light users. If you're sailing offshore I don't think they are good for owners.

I don't like I/Os either so take that all for what it is worth. Simple and elegant is my preference, and that means a straight shaft. Run a FMEA on a saildrive.

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post #839 of 1164 Old 05-05-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

Junky:
Not a problem. I'm at the yard every Wednesday. I arrive around 9am. Would that work for you? I leave around 11am. I'd be happy to show you around the project. Just give me a date.

As for the sail drive. I remain committed to the sail drive partly due to many years of personal experience with one. Also the fact that I have designed sail drives into numerous boats. It has never been a problem. I will stay with sail drives for future designs.

"Pretty much everything works when it is new." My sail drive went into my boat in 1978. Worked flawlessly for years. If sail drives were a problem, I'd be in the front line of hearing about it. Manufacturers would be screaming over warrantee issues with sail drives. Doesn't happen. I have hundreds of sail drives in my boats. Believe me, if they were a problem I would hear about it.

Lots of fake news out there these days.

Minne:
My client has never had a sail drive before. Do you really think sail drives are "experimental"? Once again, my sail drive was installed in 1978 and it ran without fail for the 15 years I had my boat. You probably can't say that about your engine.

There is sometimes this reaction to think that your own boat represents the epitome of design and build technology, anything newer and different must be bad. That's a lovely display of fidelity to your boat but fortunately just not reality. Time marches on. After six Mercedes Benzes I now drive a Subaru.

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post #840 of 1164 Old 05-05-2017
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Re: Bob Perry's Carbon Cutters

Bob,

The cutters are really coming together beautifully. True works of art. One of the most impressive parts is the consistent dedication to getting each piece right.

With regards to the saildrive discussion, I completely understand what it is like to work with clients who have specific objectives which may or may not coincide with my own recommendations. All you can do is provide your best advice and then live with the client's preferences as long as it does not severly endanger the client.

But while I understand where Bob is coming from, I had a sail drive on my last boat and sailed on a number of boats which experienced a range of failures. Personally, I would not have one again. I realize that there may be differences between one manufacturer and another.

In the 14 years I had my Buhk, I had two shaft seal failures, which led to one emergency haul out. One boat that I raced with a Yanmar, had a lower leg corrode through which was thought to have been caused by electrolysis in his marina. That leg cost approximately 25% of what he paid for the whole boat, so he pulled the engine and drive and mounted an outboard until he could afford a new outdrive leg.

I obviously can't speak for Volvo's.

Jeff


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