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post #41 of 52 Old 12-12-2015
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Owning a full keel boat with attached rudder agree whole heartedly with Bob. Nice to have a balanced rudder and even nicer to have a boat that will turn in a fairway without backing and filling. His design looks like the best of all worlds, balanced rudder, cutaway between keel and rudder to make the boat easier to turn, and rudder attached to keel so you don't drag home your lobster dinner or an irate lobsterman with a shotgun.

Staysails are normally carried when there is decent wind. For very light wind, you need a reacher/drifter/asym. Once the wind picks up, the staysail comes into its own and can be heavy enough to withstand winds of a wide variety of weight. For really strong winds, you hoist the storm jib. If you elect to have a reefable staysail instead of a storm jib, the force on the sail is reduced as you reduce the square footage so doesn't need to be super heavy weight cloth.

We sheeted the staysail on our Westsail to a track on the cabin top well inboard of the genoa/yankee sheeting track. On our current sloop, the working jib sheets to a block on the inner side of the walkway inboard of the rail mounted genoa track.
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post #42 of 52 Old 03-01-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
Traveling around the BVI over the last week we (Forrest and i) have been speculating about cutter rigs on both monohulls and catamarans. There seem to be two variables: a masthead or fractional jibstay, and the bottom attachment point of the jibstay (from about a foot behind the forestay to about 1/2 "J".) We have been trying to figure out the advantage/disadvantage of each configuration.

i would be interested in a response from a knowledgeable individual. We have had ample time for speculation, additional speculation is of no value to us. (Sorry, those who feel the need to post!)

Fair winds and following seas
I think the rig you describe with the forestays close together is not a cutter at all. On our cutter there's enough room to tack our 120% genoa between the outer and inner forestays, so we can sail in genuine cutter fashion. Cutters are great, especially if you want a nicely balanced boat in strong winds.

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post #43 of 52 Old 03-01-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

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Originally Posted by S/VPeriwinkle View Post
I think the rig you describe with the forestays close together is not a cutter at all. On our cutter there's enough room to tack our 120% genoa between the outer and inner forestays, so we can sail in genuine cutter fashion. Cutters are great, especially if you want a nicely balanced boat in strong winds.

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I believe he's referring to a solent stay.
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post #44 of 52 Old 03-16-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

I have extended my sprit three feet on a raw son thirty which is said to be acceptable due to a weather helm caused by the center of effort being three feet aft in the design.
My questions are concerning what degree to cut the yankee jib?
How far aft between the forestay and mast to add the second stay.
To furl or not either of these.
Should the "main jib?" extend aft past the mast or add a foot with traveler for easier operation.
Might I add, this not a boat for the less nimble.
Thank you in advance for your much needed and timely advice....
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post #45 of 52 Old 03-16-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodvet View Post
I have extended my sprit three feet on a raw son thirty which is said to be acceptable due to a weather helm caused by the center of effort being three feet aft in the design.
My questions are concerning what degree to cut the yankee jib?
How far aft between the forestay and mast to add the second stay.
To furl or not either of these.
Should the "main jib?" extend aft past the mast or add a foot with traveler for easier operation.
Might I add, this not a boat for the less nimble.
Thank you in advance for your much needed and timely advice....
At the risk of offending our gracious hosts (SailNet), by recommending another forum, your question may be better served on the boat design forum. This is where designers, both pro and amateur, get together and swap ideas.

Boat Design Forums
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post #46 of 52 Old 03-18-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Have a basic question and would appreciate the wisdom and knowledge of this forum. We are blessed having a NA who has designed more cutters than anyone (RP) and very knowledgeable participants such as JH.
To paraphrase Walter Schultz ( Shannon Yachts) statement of decades ago " as wind speeds increase you want to maintain the position of the head sail at the extreme bow of the boat. This will result in a better mannered vessel with a neutral helm." He took it as far as to place the smaller sail in front of the larger headsail on his designs.
Now I understand for centuries the thinking was as you reef sails on a single masted vessel the center of effort should move down but equally important toward the mast.
I have owned and sailed cutters well mannered in heavy wind designed by Carl Alberg ( Cape Dory ), Robert Perry ( Tayana) and a solent Carl Schumacher (Outbound). All have had neural helms or a wee bit of weather helm in gales and storms. I understand beyond rig the appendages are a equally important determinant. I further understand on modern fractionals as you reef the center of effort of the jib moves forward and these can be well mannered boats in a blow as well.
Still, wish to know is there any merit in W.Schultz thinking. Are there benefits to have the headsail as far forward as reasonably feasible in heavy weather? Is the traditional thinking of moving the center of effort of all sails toward the mast the enduring paradigm?

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post #47 of 52 Old 03-18-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Is the traditional thinking of moving the center of effort of all sails toward the mast the enduring paradigm?
That continues to work best for me.

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post #48 of 52 Old 03-18-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Still there is a dichotomy of thinking. Look at the rigs on modern fractionals Jeff talks about or the short handed ocean racers of the last few decades.

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post #49 of 52 Old 03-21-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
Traveling around the BVI over the last week we (Forrest and i) have been speculating about cutter rigs on both monohulls and catamarans. There seem to be two variables: a masthead or fractional jibstay, and the bottom attachment point of the jibstay (from about a foot behind the forestay to about 1/2 "J".) We have been trying to figure out the advantage/disadvantage of each configuration.

i would be interested in a response from a knowledgeable individual. We have had ample time for speculation, additional speculation is of no value to us. (Sorry, those who feel the need to post!)

Fair winds and following seas
Roger,

For additional perspective to the good input you have received here, consider reading this brief article from Attainable Adventure Cruising.

[Note: AAC is a fee based site we find very worthwhile. The article I linked does require membership... I have no affiliation other than being a member...]

Our ketch is rigged with a removable inner forestay so we also enjoy and expound on the benefits of such a rig.

Cheers!

Bill


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Last edited by wrwakefield; 03-21-2016 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Originally posted no membership required to read the linked article. Corrected to indicate membership is required. Apologies.
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post #50 of 52 Old 03-21-2016
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Re: Cutter Rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
To paraphrase Walter Schultz ( Shannon Yachts) statement of decades ago " as wind speeds increase you want to maintain the position of the head sail at the extreme bow of the boat. This will result in a better mannered vessel with a neutral helm."
Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
He took it as far as to place the smaller (TOPSAIL) sail in front of the larger STAYSAIL on his designs.
So did Bob Perry on most of his double-enders. Perry LIKES 'large' staysails, me too.


-----------------------------------
If you analyze from a 3 (or 4 or more) dimensional perspective - x, y, z + rig elasticity and sail elasticity .... and not just a 2 dimensional combined center of effort of a sail plan, my exhaustive data collection on a PerryBoat Cutter over the years would agree with Schultz' statement ....
On a cutter rig, this is far far far more complicated than with a simple sloop.


I think what Schultz' comments addresses is the (infernal) headstay sag (and opposing reactional forestay 'tightening') that NATURALLY develops on a cutter rig ... with headsail, staysail flying and the wind strength is 'changing'. The 'dynamic interplay' of rig tensions and elasticity is incredible on a cutter rig.


Simple speak (at least trying to simple speak):
- on a cutter rig especially, if one allows the luff section of the headsail to sag off to leewards and that luff curve (w/r to fore and aft AND from the Center Line)) is much greater than the 'hollow section' that the sailmaker cut into that forward edge, any boat will begin to skid off to leewards, and usually with the helmsman erroneously decrying 'weather helm'. With an improper headstay tension (for the actual wind strength) allowing headstay sag off to leeward, the 'dynamic' center of effort of the headsail is now no longer near or as close to the boats centerline (along that imaginary 10-12 headsail tack-to-clew line); plus, with additional fore/aft headstay sag the headsail leech will close (tighten) and which totally screws-up the interaction between headsail and staysail ('bootstrapping' / 'velocity dumping') .... draft aft, hooked-up / tight leech, headsail CE way off to leeward = skidding to leeward - aggressive heeling, slow and cranky boat, plus the 'feeling' of weather helm.

Remedies for cutter rigs (in agreement with my impression of intent of Schultz) and for optimizing going-to-weather / pointing.
1.headsail luff sag (to leeward) correctly tensioned via backstay .... with additional 'help' from runners if required. The wire sag should exactly 'match' the smooth concave curve that the sailmaker cut into the luff - depending on wind strength.
1a. to decrease 'fore/aft' headstay sag (opens the leech and remediates 'draft aft') - slight release of sheet / winch pressure to help remedy fore/aft aspect of wire sag. Keep the gorillas off the winches!!!
1c. when beating for optimum VMG, LOOSEN forestay (the staysail wire) tension ... but don't allow staysail luff to sag to weather .... 5% tension?? if you slightly loosen the forestay on a cutter rig, the headstay will automatically 'tighten' and without increased backstay tension.
2. Super-laminate sails, or very high quality high aspect ratio dacron cut into a radial, etc. pattern for least stretch possible. Less sail 'elasticity'
3. Re-tension halyard(s) as needed to control draft position and control leech shape.
4. Control/optimize 'slot' distance (all sails) via sheet tension (and/or barber hauler). The higher the wind speed, the 'larger' the slot distance. Set the correct 'slot open' distance via max. output of your speedo (vmg).
4a. As wind speed (or boat speed) increases, increase headsail and staysail CUNNINGHAM tension to help the luff entry to become 'more rounded' (w/r horizontal plane); will also help with keeping the leeches FLAT and 'open'. The higher the boat speed or wind speed, the more 'rounded luff entry shape'.
5. When all else fails, reduce sail area / reef down.

If one sets up tensions at 'plain vanilla' 12-15% on a cutter, invariably as the wind increases, the luff sag will cause skidding and the CUTTER will only be tacking through 90A .... or more. Set up as above and the CUTTER RIG, especially a Perry Boat, can easily tack through ~70A and be pointing (and at optimized VMG) like a banshee. (Got the load of PHRF pewter to prove it).

Note - Skidding is determined by noting increasing helm pressure followed by watching the stern wake. The turbulence from the rudder should be about 3 off from the centerline in a well rig tensioned boat with correctly shaped sails .... plus watching for that headstay sag.

Note1 - precision monitoring of headstay sag, (forestay sag on sloops) http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFil...f%20Hollow.pdf
Note2 - set up the amount of mainsail draft via outhaul tension so that you get maximum speedo output .... every time you go out because every day the wind and sea state is 'different'. If you don't have perfect mainsail shape for the days conditions, you'll never have close to perfect jib/genoa/topsail/staysail shape and performance output.
Note3 - If the boat is NOT skidding, control weather helm via mainsail halyard or cunningham tension.
Note4 - special aerodynamic considerations for staysails that don't apply to sails made for 'sloops': http://www.ftp.tognews.com/Publicati...e_Head_Rig.pdf

hope this helps. ;-)

Last edited by RichH; 03-21-2016 at 10:42 PM.
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