Why don't people like double Enders? - Page 9 - SailNet Community
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post #81 of 101 Old 05-23-2016 Thread Starter
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Can't get the image but I know the R 37. So Newfoundland and then where? How many States did you cover on the bikes? R
so much ... anger? Frustration? It's hard to pin it down. There is angst in the land. It was a privilege travelling through this land that is so similar to my own, yet so different.
i know what you mean... So nicely observered and good to know I'm not the only one noticing. Born here by the way(by accident :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye but lived abroad from teenage years on. I think back to when I was young with no point of reference drowning in the ignorance that pervades here.
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post #82 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Re: Why don't people like double Enders?

I went and dug up this thread because it came up in another thread. I have a few questions to help to me understand the qualities of pointy sterns that make them less capable in situations where extended sea keeping ability is required or desired.

My first question is, assuming my engine and largest wetted surface area is aft of midships, which it often is, if I were to become disabled unexpectedly, how would my boat most likely lie to the wind and seas? I know many factors could effect this, but would it be reasonable to assume that some boats would drift with their stern or quarter facing the wind and sea?

What about the old sailing work boats? When the seamen stopped tending to sails and oars so they could haul nets, traps, hook up a tow, how would they have drifted? Quarter into the sea?

Dismasted boats? This I am sure will vary on how the wreckage lies, but will they often drift with their quarters into the wind and seas?

Is it possible that designers of old working boats and life boats weren't solely concerned with how it was easiest to build a wooden boat? After all, some of them were pretty good at their craft. Maybe there was another non aesthetic reason for building sterns that were resistant to breaking seas? Maybe this design was in some way advantageous when a boat is disabled at sea, by any number of factors? Is it possible that many boats will drift, when disabled, bows down wind and the stern in fact becomes the front of the boat in that scenario and a high stern, that parts the seas is actually better on a totally disabled boat? Or, if they ride bow to the sea, would the boat not be moving backwards through the water?

If a boat is built for ultimate survivability, what considerations would a skilled designer consider? Would they consider how well she ran off the wind in moderate conditions? Are moderate conditions the most dangerous? What would the most dangerous reasonable conditions for a vessel in survival mode be? Would it be a disabled boat? Would the winds be howling and the seas be running high? Could she be riding stern to the seas partially flooded?

Commercial working vessels have taken the same trend as yachts, they have turned away from high rounded sterns to square sterns. Did they do this to make the boats more sea worthy? Or did they do it so they could move the accommodations and machinery space further aft to allow for greater cargo capacity forward? From what I know of ship owners, the decision probably had a lot more to do with earning capacity than safety.

Is it possible cruising yachts were switched to square sterns for the same reason? Increased space and buoyancy aft, so they could increase the living space forward? Maybe they didn't do this just for safety, maybe marketing was also a factor in the sugar scoop stern? Do designers take a dismasted/disabled steering/otherwise disabled vessel into consideration when designing a vessel? Should they?

Is it reasonable to assume that if I spend enough time in offshore conditions I may eventually experience a disabling condition such as a disabled rudder, rig or engine, or all 3 of the above at the same time? Any time I've been around a dismasting, I have observed the damaged rig halyards and sheets have disabled the prop. Was that just fluke?

So many questions.

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post #83 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Re: Why don't people like double Enders?

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Originally Posted by midwesterner View Post
the canoe stern boats or "double enders"
At the risk of being pedantic, those terms are not identical.
  • A canoe stern is pointed, almost as much as the bow rather like a canoe!
  • A double-ended boat's transom is rounded and has more buoyancy than a canoe stern.
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post #84 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Re: Why don't people like double Enders?

Typically sailboats without sails up or motoring will lie beam on to the seas.
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post #85 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Typically sailboats without sails up or motoring will lie beam on to the seas.
Is this a static position? Or will there be some variation? Will the bow tend to blow down causing the boat to accelerate, and then round back up as she accelerates through the water? Or do they just sit there beam too?
Also, is a wide beam aft advantageous to a vessel sitting beam too breaking seas?

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post #86 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Re: Why don't people like double Enders?

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Typically sailboats without sails up or motoring will lie beam on to the seas.
Probably, also, depends on the sea state. A boat with a lot of windage toward the bow may head down a lot until it gets a breaker up the back side, that would push the stern forward.

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post #87 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Re: Why don't people like double Enders?

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Is this a static position? Or will there be some variation? Will the bow tend to blow down causing the boat to accelerate, and then round back up as she accelerates through the water? Or do they just sit there beam too?
Also, is a wide beam aft advantageous to a vessel sitting beam too breaking seas?
Lying a hull used to be a common passive strategy years ago to deal with strong winds and large seas. It is however not a good strategy if the waves are breaking. Wider beam aft may add somewhat to the stability if your lying a hull but these days a much better active strategy is to run off downwind or if you need to employ a passive strategy then use a drogue. I have always found a boat to go beam on to the seas when the sails are dropped, never experienced a boat doing anything other when lying a hull but that's just been my limited experience, it's possible some boats may react differently.
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post #88 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Re: Why don't people like double Enders?

Lockjaw:
I would not agree with you.
If anything a canoe stern boat, like a Valiant or a PSC, has far more volume aft than a double ender of say the Westsail type. No comparison.
A canoe stern boat adds and pushes volume aft of the "buttwater" aka end of DWL aft as opposed to a Westsail type stern where there is almost no overhang aft.

All canoe sterned boats are double enders. Not all double enders have canoe sterns. A canoe stern is one kind of double ender.

And pleeeeeeeze! if it is a double ender THERE IS NO TRANSOM! That's what makes it a double ender.

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Last edited by bobperry; 09-23-2016 at 03:55 PM.
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post #89 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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So about canoe sterns. I have read an article by Mr Perry about being inspired in part, to build canoe sterns for marketing reasons or because it was an expectation that good sea going boats had pointy sterns.

Where did that expectation come from? If that expectation already existed, then the first of their kind must not have been built in the 70's?

Take a look at Life boats and canoes. Both have pointy sterns. Even modern canoes of any quality have pointy sterns. What is the fundamental difference between a modern sailboat and modern canoe, aside from size? Is it the expectation that the sailboat will constantly be driven forward by sails or engine, where a white water canoe needs to be back ferried, gets twisted backwards and sometimes rides down the river side ways?

What if there is a situation where you don't want your sailboat to be driven forward? Hove too, dragging a sea anchor, dragging a drogue, lying a hull, picking up a man overboard, out of control, backing on the engine at a bar entrance timing the waves or just plain disabled, would she now more closely resemble a canoe in white water?

White water canoes all have a few common design features, canoe sterns, high freeboard and pronounced tumble home, pronounced rocker being evident both for and aft.

If you are riding a canoe sideways down class 3 rapids, how do you keep the boat upright? Do you lean down stream as far as possible to prevent the upstream gunwale from "catching" the current and flipping the canoe?

So if you lean downstream in a canoe to take advantage of the tumble home and keep the upstream gunwale out of the breaking water, why would a sailboat in similar conditions not benefit from high freeboard and pronounced tumble home (or at least straight sides) for her entire length?

Riding a sea sideways, what is going to cause the boat to capsize? Breaking waves over the up side? Or the lee gunwale digging in when the trough is reached or while sliding down the wave and the windward side lifting? Would a high freeboard boat, with lots of tumble home and no corners near the back be less likely to dig in to Lee and be lifted to windward?

Same question for a breaking sea coming from windward, if the breaking sea hits the boats side, rather than landing on the deck/gunwale would the boat be more likely to stay upright?

Last edited by Arcb; 09-23-2016 at 05:00 PM.
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post #90 of 101 Old 09-23-2016
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Re: Why don't people like double Enders?

Archy:
For the most part your examples are all boats that have to be designed to go forwards and backwards. That is not true of the modern yacht. Not for most if us anyway. The life boat and white water kayak are both perfect examples of this.

I would avoid trying stability characteristics in the reason for DE'ers. The double ender with far less volume aft than a transom stern boat will, all else being equal, have less stability. If you want stability a big, fat fanny helps.

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