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post #41 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post
Capta, the point of my post was not to discuss heavy weather sailing techniques, because that isn't the subject of this thread, which is about boat size in relation to offshore sailing. My point was to explain a particular way in which big boats and small boats behave differently in heavy weather conditions. That's what this thread is about.

I haven't discussed my thinking with regard to heavy weather sailing techniques. I'll save that for a thread titled: "What are the best heavy weather sailing techniques?"
Actually on further inspection, THIS ISN'T EVEN YOUR THREAD so all I can and will say to you is unpublishable, if I don't want to get kicked off this forum!

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post #42 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
...Do you think this was because sailors conception of sailing has changed from mostly a day use to a weekend use to a term use (cruising)? Obviously there are many day use sailors... racers... Sunday afternoon sails... My own observations confirms this. And there is a lot of week ending to a relatively nearby harbor... witness the transient mooring business which has been stood up.

If there initial demand was day use, racing and weekending... there was little need for the robust offshore capable designs... as well as the long LOA boats.
Yes, interesting stuff Sander. All better discussed in a cockpit, over a beer (or two, or three…). Hope we can do that someday.

So you’re suggesting there are proportionally more boats travelling offshore, for longer durations, than in the past. I wish there was some hard data on this question, but I’d have to disagree.

My observation is that the vast, vast majority of boats rarely spend more than a few days off the dock each year. Too many never leave at all. Most rarely go out for more than a few days at a time. Far fewer venture for weeks. And it is the rare boat that leaves the dock for months.

I bet, based on my own distorted view of the world , that there were proportionally* more recreational boats travelling the oceans blue in the 1970s and early 80s compared to today. I bet today there is a higher proportion of recreational boats that only do day or weekend travel. Or worse, hardly ever leave the dock at all.

(*I say proportionally more. I believe there are more recreational boats today than in the past, so obviously the absolute numbers have gone up.)

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I suspect that with weekending... came the need for more comfortable accommodations. Sailors would even use their boats as week end homes...get close to nature... relax and or do some boat maintenance. But the capability to take your home with you to someplace 100 miles or more became a new meme. We seen size creep in houses as well to where McMansions are more the norm size wise in many markets rather than the exception.
I think your McMansion observation supports my view that boat size has risen with affluence and the increased demand for more comforts. There is no needs-based reason for houses to have increased in size. In fact, family size has gone down over the last 40 years. But the reverse has happened with house size. The main reason is increasing affluence, and demand for more comforts and more stuff.

Houses are larger now b/c we can afford more (or are willing to take on more debt … which is a whole other discussion). So too with boats.
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post #43 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
I find this really interesting. Over the years the insurance companies I've dealt with didn't seem to care at all whether I was inexperienced or licensed up the ying yang. I can't remember ever having to produce a ticket even when I was operating the big motor yachts, except when seeking charter insurance, and even then there was little interest in it other than it existed.
I've never gotten the slightest discount because of my tickets, experience or record either, which seems radically unfair.
This parallels my experience with insurance as well. I’ve never been asked about my certifications or experience. In fact, I brought it up with my broker a few years back. They said it made no difference what accreditations I had, or how long I’d been at the helm. All they cared about was the boat survey, and what coverage I wanted.

Last May I conducted an insurance survey with members here on SN and over at CF (and posted the results for all to have). It was interesting to see the range of rates people were paying, which underscores the advice to really shop around. I didn’t ask about certification or experience discounts. Perhaps it is time to run the survey again.

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Originally Posted by WharfRat View Post
If you Google for "Latitude 38 Circumnavigators" then it will bring up a hashed URL like this one

Latitude 38 - West Coast Circumnavigators' List
Excellent source WR. Now, if someone would be willing to transfer the boat length data into a spreadsheet, we could easily come up with LOA medians and averages.

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post #44 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

Mike,

For sure disposable income has grown and this will explain boat size creeping up. It will also explain more boats not being used... sitting in slips or on moorings...another observation. Some marinas have transient slips or use vacated slips for short term visitors (I assume with slip "owner's" permission)... but what I see is most marinas are largely full all the time in season and so it seems most of the boats never go anywhere.

You also need to factor in the improvement in navigation gear and systems... which makes going from here to there seem as simple as following a google map... turn right in 500'... The fabulous gear now is a safety feature and encourages some to sail further more frequently than in the past when perhaps people felt more experience was necessary to mitigate risk. This gear has added to the cost... but increased the range and "confidence" for sailors.

++++

As far as insurance goes... these claims seem to be settled by formulas or bargaining... unless the damage is huge. The insurance industry is shady in my opinion. And as there are no license requirements they also avoid this issue and it doesn't figure in their premium rates.
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post #45 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Originally Posted by WharfRat View Post
Yeah weird they have put some sort of access control on it.

If you Google for "Latitude 38 Circumnavigators" then it will bring up a hashed URL like this one

Latitude 38 - West Coast Circumnavigators' List
OK, so I’m a glutton for punishment… I went ahead and converted the text file into data. Involved some fancy importing, along with manual inputs, but I came up with a row of boat lengths.

The average length of west-coast circumnavigators is: 41.9 feet.
The median is almost identical: 42 feet.

The list covers from the 1960s (and earlier in some cases) to the present. What would be really interesting is to generate a graph of date vs LOA. I bet it would show an increase in size over time. (The file is too messed up to do this without hours of manual work).

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post #46 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
For sure disposable income has grown and this will explain boat size creeping up. It will also explain more boats not being used... sitting in slips or on moorings...another observation. Some marinas have transient slips or use vacated slips for short term visitors (I assume with slip "owner's" permission)... but what I see is most marinas are largely full all the time in season and so it seems most of the boats never go anywhere.
Yup, I agree. My observation is that relatively few boats leave their home port for more than a few days each year, and most never go very far, or for long.

Another thing to consider is that, especially in the USA and (to a lesser extent) Canada, people are working longer, and taking less time off, compared to previous decades. This means most people can’t go very far, or for very long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
You also need to factor in the improvement in navigation gear and systems... which makes going from here to there seem as simple as following a google map... turn right in 500'... The fabulous gear now is a safety feature and encourages some to sail further more frequently than in the past when perhaps people felt more experience was necessary to mitigate risk. This gear has added to the cost... but increased the range and "confidence" for sailors.
I agree. I think boating has become safer over the decades. But I suspect it has more to do with the things you mention here, and not so much about increasing boat size.
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post #47 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Capta can you post for me. I’ve learned from you and like that to continue.
++++1 Me too
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post #48 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I know my insurance company requires 40 LOA before they'll provide offshore coverage. Always look to the actuaries, if you're interested in the odds. That doesn't mean their answer is an absolute, but it's usually a well tested advantage.
... and Minnewaska for the win.
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post #49 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

The idea that boats have generally gotten bigger over the years caused me to think about this.

Block Island’s Old Harbor was very approachable, when I was a kid. You could even expect to get a slip, with little notice. Today, it’s nearly impossible to find a spot to anchor in July or August, let alone secure a slip or mooring. Obviously, people are staying. This is true for many other anchorages I can recall.

So, are people staying because they already bought bigger boats that would allow it. Or, do people want bigger boats so they can overnight more comfortably.

I’m going to throw some odds to the latter. A conscious decision to buy bigger, so the option to stay aboard longer is available. This could be driven by exponential increases in water front property costs. Perhaps, historically, one might have a beach house and a day sailer. Now, the boat serves as both.
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post #50 of 139 Old 02-12-2018
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Re: I was told that for safety offshore you need 45

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Block Island’s Old Harbor was very approachable, when I was a kid. You could even expect to get a slip, with little notice. Today, it’s nearly impossible to find a spot to anchor in July or August, let alone secure a slip or mooring. Obviously, people are staying. This is true for many other anchorages I can recall.
I don’t know where Block Island is, but I suspect it is near a large urban area. Anchorages located close to crowded areas are become more crowded due to the sheer increase in the number of boats, but also (I suspect) b/c people don’t go very far.

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
So, are people staying because they already bought bigger boats that would allow it. Or, do people want bigger boats so they can overnight more comfortably.

I’m going to throw some odds to the latter. A conscious decision to buy bigger, so the option to stay aboard longer is available. ...
The point is, what people define as “comfortable” is an ever-increasing standard. As I wrote, yesterday’s BIG “comfortable” boats are today’s smallish frugal ones. Humans haven’t changed in their basic needs. What has changed is our perceived need for more comforts.

Today’s houses are far more comfortable than generations prior. Yesterday’s luxury is today’s necessity. It progresses this way as affluence grows, not through any hard reality of what is needed to be comfortable (beyond the basics, of course).

The current housing market is perhaps a case-in-point. For the first time in 50 years average house sizes are starting to decrease. The millennial generation is starting to reverse the trend of their parents, and grandparents, and are now demanding smaller homes. Why? Because this is the first generation that will be poorer than their parents. They can’t afford the huge McMansions.

(This same financial trend explains the development of the so-called “sharing economy”, which has little do to with sharing.)

BTW, I’m not saying comforts are bad, or that small and “sharing” is a negative. Perception is often reality. I’m just trying to understand the trends we see in the context of the OP’s initial query.

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