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post #171 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

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A USCG inspection is never unreasonable because the courts have determined it is reasonable to allow them at all times.
Can you show me where the terms reasonable/unreasonable are found in the document. Here is the link.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/14/89

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The problem is you are trying to shoehorn modern interpretations of what a reasonable search is to laws that were decided about 200 years ago.
Ah... no, I believe the fourth amendment(1791) precedes the law(1949?) authorising the USCG extra-constitutional power. It would appear the USCG is exempt from the application of the fourth amendment. It would seem to me because this exemption does not explicitly re-define what is an 'unreasonable search' (it, in fact, has no need to make such a delineation as any qualification has the capacity to limit the power being granted) the original fourth amendment definition is still intact. Minnewaska (and possibly others) does not appear to hold this view and I have asked where I could find this new definition since that was the point in the post I was referencing. As I said previously, I could not find a new definition during a cursory search.

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You can keep poking at this, but if you're a UK citizen, I fail to understand what you hope to accomplish.
I fail to see where nationality would be germane.

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The phrase "unreasonable" was not amended
First off the word 'unreasonable' can be classified as a term but not as a phrase. Secondly, it appears we are in agreement, the original definition of 'unreasonable search' stands.

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If you are just trolling, let's stop.
Starting from the second post I have found a lot of responses in this thread to be contemptuous and belittling. Given that, my posts, to some measure, could be labeled trolling but I consider it trolling the troll-like responses in this particular thread.

Lastly, I like to point out I have never stated the USCG does not have the 'legal authority', illogical as it is, to search all US flagged vessels anywhere in the world, contrary to what some seem to believe.

Now...I think I need a shower.
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post #172 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

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Originally Posted by Myztyk View Post
.....The 4th Amendment clearly states that a WARRANT is required, and in order for said warrant to be issued it MUST have probable cause AND an oath or affirmation in order to justify it. ......
This is simply inaccurate to all circumstances and no amount of ranting will change that. I actually posted a Supreme Court opinion that says so. Your opinion of SCOTUS is interesting and fairly contemporary. Have you held every court for the last 150 years in contempt?

The part you're having trouble grasping is that the 4th amendment only prohibits "unreasonable" searches. The courts had fully agreed that there are many examples of "reasonable" searches. USCG boardings are clearly considered reasonable (as upheld by the court), therefore, the 4th amendment prohibition does not apply. Exigent circumstances are considered reasonable (ie the police see you run into your house after firing a gun at them, they can come right in looking for you).

There are several searches considered reasonable. Clearly, you don't like it. Take your passion and try to get the law changed. More power to you. Arguing it isn't the law or constitutional, however, will discredit your argument.

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And IF I get boarded and searched, then take them to court and win
Which court would you take them to, when the Supreme Court has already ruled on the matter?
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post #173 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

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Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
Can you show me where the terms reasonable/unreasonable are found in the document. Here is the link.

......
What part of the Supreme Court determining USCG boardings are reasonable and, therefore, not prohibited by the 4th amendment, don't you understand?

I've posted the link and excerpt above. Good luck with it.


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post #174 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

Ok. It looks like current case law supports the notion of suspicionless boarding. Clearly the only thing that would change this would be an act of Congress or a chance for a new batch of Justices to reexamine the idea.

Lets move on ... er, back.

You're about to stopped and boarded. What are the limits of what the USCG legally do at this point? Once they board?

I know it is foolish to argue when literally outgunned. For those whose advice is to just be polite and let them do whatever they want, please don't repeat that answer. It has been repeated enough. Instead, answer: What actions taken by the USCG do you think would allow you to prevail in a court case?

There are bad apples everywhere. The USCG doesn't know if the boaters are a family on vacation or a drug gang. The people on the boat don't know if they are being boarded by scrupulous member of the guard, a hothead who just had a bad day at home, or a well-intentioned person who doesn't know the limits of their authority. Unless their powers are unlimited, it is not reasonable to believe that they have never been exceeded, even accidentally. What are those limits, what are your rights?

Answers with actual citations are more convincing than anecdotes, but anecdotes do make for good reading.
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post #175 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

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What part of the Supreme Court determining USCG boardings are reasonable and, therefore, not prohibited by the 4th amendment, don't you understand?
The fourth amendment is the determining agent of what is reasonable/unreasonable as it appears to be referred to in the opinion of the case cited above and not determined by the subsequent enacted legislation. This is the point I have been trying to articulate (poorly) all along in maintaining the definition of 'unreasonable search' as unchanged. Our conclusion is one and the same although I find the methodology suspect.
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post #176 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

18 pages and you don't get it's all about the Patriot Act! Amazing!......Dale

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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

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18 pages and you don't get it's all about the Patriot Act! Amazing!......Dale
Notwithstanding that 14 U.S.C. section 89 dates back to 1949 ?
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

A brief history of time: http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/vi...9&context=wmlr
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post #179 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

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Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
The fourth amendment is the determining agent of what is reasonable/unreasonable as it appears to be referred to in the opinion of the case cited above and not determined by the subsequent enacted legislation.......
Is that a guess? There is nothing in the 4th amendment that defines reasonable from unreasonable. It's pretty short and sweet. By now, you've surely looked it up and read every word.

Let's keep this in mind. When the US Constitution was written, this protection was not included. It was added several years later. The point being, the authors gave very specific consideration to what they wanted to add. They very intentionally used the word "unreasonable" when the amendment could have omitted the word and just said all search and seizures.

Look up the amendment and read it without the word unreasonable. Then note that the word unreasonable was included.


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post #180 of 208 Old 08-04-2015
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Re: Rights during USCG Inspection.

For those who keep insisting it is the Patriot Act that is the basis for all of this...the Patriot Act changed nothing in the way of legal authorities for CG boarding of recreational vessels. If you want to "blame" something, you can look to the "war on drugs" as an impetus for increased and (in some cases) more aggressive CG boardings. Boardings existed pretty much in their current form for years before the Patriot Act. In fact, armed CG boardings go back to the 1980's. And yes, there were questions like those raised here that go back long before 9/11! As it stands now, the CG's authority to board US vessels is settled law based on federal statute and court (including the Supreme Court) interpretations.
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