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post #21 of 43 Old 08-05-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

From the John Rousmaniere report; http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/..._Symposium.pdf

John Connolly
Sailor, head instructor, Modern Sailing Academy.
Quote:
6. The motor. One old lesson reared its head many times during the recent tests. Given
the vastly different skill levels of participants and the reality that these tests were
conducted without ocean waves, a very important safety tool on inboard engine cruising
sailboats is the engine. Of course, all the normal safety precautions need to be taken into
account before the engine is used around a person in the water, but there are times in
large seas when the engine is crucial.
Somewhere in my sordid past, I read a report that said that the FASTEST and MOST RELIABLE way to return to a COB is to drop or furl all sail and simply motor back to the COB.

However, this thread is about the procedures and methods that are taught to new sailors.


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post #22 of 43 Old 08-06-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

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Originally Posted by Ninefingers View Post
If I went overboard, and someone tried any of the aforementioned procedures without first trying to start the engine and motoring back to me, I would politely cave their faces in should I be lucky enough to get back aboard.

The adherence to procedure, for whatever reason, should not trump saving a life.

Sorry to sound harsh, but there is no way in hell you can expect crew to follow procedure while watching someone die.
By the time I come back you will be to cold and tired for me to worry about your threats of violence
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post #23 of 43 Old 08-06-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

Back in the day when i used to teach sailing I taught the school preferred method of MOB. I came to the conclusion there are as many methods as there are instructors.
Mostly it was just a good way of getting everyone to consolidate what they had learned.

engine or no engine was always an argument, this method was better because ect.

In reality it does not matter which method you use. It will only work if you have practiced it. As an instructor i practiced it a lot.
As a bald sailor I practice Hat Over Board drills quite frequently.

One of these days I should actually try out the life-sling.

I personally like the heave to versions, with an engine started JIK.

Last edited by Uricanejack; 08-06-2015 at 03:23 PM.
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post #24 of 43 Old 08-06-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

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One of these days I should actually try out the life-sling.
I have a Life Sling on my little 22' boat. I have actually tried it out and practiced using a spare halyard to bring people in with it. Things don't always scale from a small boat to a large boat, but I think some of it will. If I'm on a charter and someone goes in I will feel more confident having practiced.

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post #25 of 43 Old 09-16-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
I taught a ASA 103 class this weekend on an Oday 35 with 5 students.

To change things up we tried the Broad reach close reach COB procedure. I had never really tried it in earnest much before. I had seen it as one of my instructor evaluators was a proponent of it.

The idea is that instead of falling off to a beam reach you fall off to a broad reach then after only a short distance you tack to a close reach and do not bring over the jib, leave it backed.

Then sail at a close reach heave to directly to the COB very slowly.

I was impressed we each did it and it worked pretty well 6 times in a row. Pretty amazing.

Check it out if you are not familiar with it.
The last page of this PDF has a picture.

http://www.modernsailing.com/press/sail.pdf
So I tried the recovery procedure as described above this weekend, starting from a broad reach, and found that it would not work for me. The issue is, the boat will not heave-to when the jib is trimmed for a broad reach. So I think the "heave-to" concept in the broad reach-close reach procedure description is a mis-understanding, if you read the document that is referenced in the post, it describes releasing the jib sheet for the recovery approach as in "slow the boat on the final close-reach approach by luffing the sails" ...no heave-to involved.

If you want to heave-to, somewhere along the process you need to trim the jib to close-haul before you tack to heave-to, you can make this a step in a COB procedure if the crew is skilled enough to follow the remainder of the process.

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Last edited by sailingfool; 09-16-2015 at 03:08 PM.
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post #26 of 43 Old 09-16-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I prefer these two methods for upwind and downwind MOB's



Advantages
a) It can be done easily by one person.
b) There is usually no need to adjust sails.
c) The sails are always under control. There are no flying clews or sheets.
d) The MOB is always on the same side of the vessel and kept in sight.
e) If unsuccessful, just come around again.
f) The MOB can be reached on most vessels by lying on the deck and grabbing them. I retrieved a TV antenna off Cape Scott in this manner.)
g) Works exceptionally well with a life-sling.




I have just completed the second image, and am looking to improve it. Any suggestions.
Jack, I don't know about using the term "heave to." There may not be time or crew to perform the tasks to heave to. Maybe just "boat in irons" or similar idea to indicate boat depowered and drifting toward OB person. Maybe an engine start as well to adjust while drifting, which can be difficult to predict. Then an engine off step once it becomes obvious that you're going to intersect the OB.

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post #27 of 43 Old 09-16-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

What I see in the "downwind MOB", is essentially a figure-eight but squeezed together from the sides til it's almost a "1", then instead of shooting up into the wind at "Oscar" (my usual approach in light air, student at the helm), you tack with jib backed.

I guess it can work nicely if you gauge the "carry" and leeward set on your new tack correctly. I can't always count on new sailors to be that precise when we are approaching Oscar-the-lifejacket.

The quick-stop I call the RORC method. Also good, but it involves jibing shorthanded, which is easy in light air but not in heavy.

Sometimes I think whatever works to get you close to and just to leeward of Oscar, is good. The important thing is the position and speed of the last boatlength or two, so you head up and get alongside, and luff while stopped or almost stopped. How you got to that spot where you headed up to stop, is less important. Kind of like Jim Furyk's golf swing--goofy looking early, but very good by the time the club face hits the ball.
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post #28 of 43 Old 09-16-2015 Thread Starter
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

[QUOTE=sailingfool;3030129 The issue is, the boat will not heave-to when the jib is trimmed for a broad reach..[/QUOTE]

What we did is:

1. Sail close hauled, with sails trimmed properly
2. Throw over oscar
3. Fall off to broad reach, go 2-3 boat lengths. (do not change sail trim)
4. Tack (this is about a 180 degree tack, we haven't touched the sails once.
5. Aim for Oscar keeping him downwind.

Doing it this way the jib is trimmed for close hauled the whole time and never touched.

The only little cheat I do is to roll up the 130 genny to about 110 so it dosn't get beat up too bad.

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It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
If you have an engineering problem solve it.
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post #29 of 43 Old 09-16-2015
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
What we did is:

1. Sail close hauled, with sails trimmed properly
2. Throw over oscar
3. Fall off to broad reach, go 2-3 boat lengths. (do not change sail trim)
4. Tack (this is about a 180 degree tack, we haven't touched the sails once.
5. Aim for Oscar keeping him downwind.

Doing it this way the jib is trimmed for close hauled the whole time and never touched.

The only little cheat I do is to roll up the 130 genny to about 110 so it dosn't get beat up too bad.
I really worry about any "wait 2-3 boat lengths" idea. If there is a big sea, any delay could cause losing sight of the MOB. If I were to lose someone in a heavy sea, my tendency would be to immediately tack and then go into irons as the boat comes back into the wind again, giving first priority to keeping an eye on the MOB. It is SO easy to lose sight that any purposeful separation of boat and MOB seems questionable to me. The "wait" idea has appeared a couple of times here and needs to be thought about. Practicing in calm, warm water in daylight is a damned sight different than reality at night or dim light in a heavy sea.

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post #30 of 43 Old 09-16-2015 Thread Starter
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Re: Broad reach close reach COB procedure

[QUOTE=sailingfool;3030129 The issue is, the boat will not heave-to when the jib is trimmed for a broad reach..[/QUOTE]

This actually brings up something I learned from my wife a month or so ago. She has been sailing with varying levels of understanding for years.

She just had an epiphany where she figured out that the points of sail, Close hauled, close reach, beam reach etc were defined by how the apparent wind was flowing over the boat and not by how the sails were set.

IOW if the wind is comming directly over the starboard beam you are on a starboard beam reach even if your sails are pulled in tight for close hauled. You are still on a beam reach just not trimmed correctly.

This works out perfectly in the exercise above because while we fall to a broad reach we leave our sails trimmed for close hauled. That does all kinds of good thing. Slows the boat down. Eliminates the need to pay attention to the sails twice and makes the whole process very simple.

This almost makes some sense because the books always show the sails trimmed properly as if that was part of the definition, which of course it is not.
In a sense she was taking the illustrations to literally and that was messing her up.

Another definition thing is the idea that a tack doesn't have to be 90 degrees, close hauled to close hauled even thought that is how we typically teach it.

A tack is still a tack if it from beam reach to to beam reach or from broad reach to close hauled which might be closer to 180 degrees.

It seems to help people to have a clearer definition of what the terms mean rather than their overly specific definition.

The lesson from the Icarus story is not about human failing.
It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
If you have an engineering problem solve it.

Last edited by davidpm; 09-16-2015 at 04:37 PM.
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