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post #51 of 144 Old 08-09-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

I was sailing downwind one time entering the Magothy River north of Annapolis and some large race fleet was beating to windward coming towards me. There was literally nowhere for me to go to keep clear of all of them and they were on both tacks criss-crossing all around me and all screaming at each other and me about about right of way. Rather hilarious actually because there was nothing to do but bob and weave around everyone.
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post #52 of 144 Old 08-09-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Originally Posted by jwing View Post
That's not what Rule 17 says and your and others' misunderstanding of it is the essence of this thread. The stand-on vessel is obligated to maintain course and speed so that the give-way vessel can make a safe course change. It is only AFTER the give-way vessel has demonstrated a failure to give way that the stand-on vessel changes course or speed. It's very simple.

I will agree that sailors should have the foresight to avoid collision courses where possible and then they don't have to follow rules that they don't want to bother with.
If I implied otherwise, then I wasn't clear. In no way am I advocating altering course unless it is to avoid a collision. My response was to "blindly" following the rule of not giving way.

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post #53 of 144 Old 08-09-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Avoid everyone is the simple and correct answer.
No, it's not. It's not possible to sail from Shilshole to Eagle Harbor while "avoiding everyone".

The only way you avoid everyone is to stay home. If that's really what you're advocating, have a seat. Some of us are going to sail, and we sail in places where avoidance isn't a viable solution.
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post #54 of 144 Old 08-09-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Originally Posted by Ten Four View Post
I was sailing downwind one time entering the Magothy River north of Annapolis and some large race fleet was beating to windward coming towards me. There was literally nowhere for me to go to keep clear of all of them and they were on both tacks criss-crossing all around me and all screaming at each other and me about about right of way. Rather hilarious actually because there was nothing to do but bob and weave around everyone.
Sorry about that. Amateur racers those were. Truly the best thing a cruiser (non-combatant) who finds themselves in the midst of a race should do is simply maintain course and speed. Whatever it may be. The good racers will simply, quietly, go around you and it is a huge help if they can anticipate your course. The losers may holler at you. You can laugh at their inexperience.

It is reasonably likely that your course change will unwittingly put you at the unknown-to-you windward mark...

Ya, sure, the rules apply, but...the racers consider a boat length is sufficient room. The radar and chartplodder encrusted cruisers think a quarter mile is a harrowingly close pass.

"...there are two kinds of opinions, those based upon tradition ... and those having something in their favor." B. Russell
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post #55 of 144 Old 08-09-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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The only way you avoid everyone is to stay home. If that's really what you're advocating, have a seat.
It's really not that bad. Just keep a good watch and try to defuse any situation long before it becomes necessary to parse the rules. I frequently adjust my course slightly to put some more room between my boat and someone else, even if theoretically I am the stand-on vessel.
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post #56 of 144 Old 08-09-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

There's no parsing. You don't parse the law at a stoplight. You go when it's green and you stop when it's red. You learn to do the right thing, and then you do it.

It's simpler than everything people make up on their own.
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post #57 of 144 Old 08-10-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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There's no parsing. You don't parse the law at a stoplight. You go when it's green and you stop when it's red. You learn to do the right thing, and then you do it.
If you drive a car like that or a boat you will be in accidents. I approach every intersection and stoplight with the mindset that anyone else approaching that intersection may do something illegal or dangerous--be prepared mentally for a car running the red light, or not stopping at a stop sign. Always have an "out" ready. Defensive driving. Having been a motorcycle rider for many years that simple rule has saved my life more than once. Same on the water--that boat you are on a collision course with may not know or understand the rules of the road (witness this thread), or the skipper may be down below fiddling with the chart plotter or making coffee. You can't see them behind the jib, so what do you do? Insist on being the stand on vessel and assert your rights? Or do you tack early and let them have clear water despite the fact you probably could have kept going because you are on starboard tack? With both the car and the boat you need to look and think way ahead so that nobody is having to think about avoiding collision or the rules in the first place. When on the highway I watch what the cars are doing ahead as far out as I can see--any brake lights coming on way up there? Anybody swerving around things in the road. Your eyes need to be constantly moving back and forth, side to side, to the mirrors, all around. When sailing I watch the sails and power boats off in the distance and anticipate where someone is headed and how they might get there. You see the angle they're making, look at the chart, see they are headed for the same buoy you are and will have to make a turn at that buoy even though it is miles away. Keep that in the back of your mind because at the buoy you will be switching from starboard to port jibe. In any case, there are very few sailboat accidents on the water--only something like 20 deaths last year in auxiliary boats and most of those were people falling overboard and drowning. It's really safe out on the water, which is why almost anything goes! The risk of serious collision is practically nill if you use commonsense.
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post #58 of 144 Old 08-10-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Originally Posted by Ten Four View Post
I was sailing downwind one time entering the Magothy River north of Annapolis and some large race fleet was beating to windward coming towards me. There was literally nowhere for me to go to keep clear of all of them and they were on both tacks criss-crossing all around me and all screaming at each other and me about about right of way. Rather hilarious actually because there was nothing to do but bob and weave around everyone.
The interaction between yacht racers and non-racers is kind of a different discussion altogether, in my mind. I race and I wholeheartedly agree that the behavior and ignorance of racers is totally embarrassing at times.

I'm afraid that I have to agree with Don. People can't even follow basic traffic laws where lines are painted on the road surface and color coded lights control the traffic flow. Why the hell would we expect people to understand and obey the traffic laws on the water, with far less visual guidance?

This whole conversation makes me sad.

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post #59 of 144 Old 08-10-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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People can't even follow basic traffic laws where lines are painted on the road surface and color coded lights control the traffic flow. Why the hell would we expect people to understand and obey the traffic laws on the water, with far less visual guidance?
I came to a stop on my motorcycle at a four-way stop intersection in a rural area and I could see a pickup truck approaching the intersection on the road coming in from my right. I was stopped well before him, so theoretically I could just go but I decided to wait to see what he would do. Yep, he just rolled on through his stop sign without even pausing and when he was in the middle I could see he was looking at something--probably his phone. He then looked up quickly for a brief instant, then back down at his phone, but the truck never slowed and he kept on rolling down the road--completely ignored the stop sign and intersection. If I had asserted my right of way I would have either broadsided him or he would have hit me. Don't do the same thing in a crossing situation with another sailboat.
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post #60 of 144 Old 08-10-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ten Four View Post
we were in communication for many miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ten Four View Post
Very light wind offshore I was making only a few knots downwind with main vanged out and jib on the other side, he was under power making lots of knots. I had to alter course 90 degrees, and reset all sails to avoid getting cut down by him when he could have altered course maybe 1 degree or less to avoid me.
What I don't understand is if you saw him many miles away, why didn't YOU alter course then ("we were in communication for many miles"), as YOU "could have altered course maybe 1 degree or less" and avoided the situation entirely. THAT would have been prudent seamanship!

"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.
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