Clueless Sailors? - Page 9 - SailNet Community
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post #81 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

6- we're lucky and rarely face the density of small ships you do. Was referring to the 700-2000' monsters you see offshore. Here still think when they show up on your screen it's on you to figure out intercepts and miss them. Generally they pop up with 1/2h or greater until time of closest approach so it's no big deal.
As regards changing course was taught to make a BIG change then come back to your intended course. That way the other fellow understands you think of yourself as give way and knows you are thinking of them. Decreases their pucker factor. Have actually gotten thank yous for doing this even from the commercial crowd on the radio.
Sailboaters are often as bad as stink potters. Its the entitled, egocentric attitude instead of the oblivious attitude but just as bad.

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post #82 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

True story.

One perfect day there must have been 30 sailboats tacking south out of the bay. I'm in my little C22 with my wife and kids...A guy single handing a beautiful 50 foot sailboat was bearing down on me. Port tack, both of us..he was upwind so fell off the wind but he still seemed to turn to run me down and when he was within 40 feet I decided I had to gybe to get him off my tail. We passed within easy speaking distance so I said over my stern-

"I figured I better get out of your way"

He looked over from his 6 foot high destroyer wheel ( I swear he had a captain's hat and an ascot) and smiled and said " I was letting you pass in front of me"

I replied " Well you were doing a pretty bad job of it!"

The guy never saw us and he could not have cared less.

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post #83 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

Entitled sailboats-
You're going south down the coast in a onshore breeze. The wind speed allows you to pinch and miss an upcoming peninsula with trim just perfect. You are on port tack. Boats are coming out of the bay tacking back and forth. They need to tack and tacking helps them get out of the bay. Still they hold to starboard tack forcing you to either tack or luff up to miss them.
By the coregs you are give way. Common curtesy would have them miss you at no penalty to them by taking a tack which they need to do anyway. Common curtesy is increasingly a rare bird. "I have my rights and screw you buddy".

This exact scenario occurred last week. Of course we tacked and kept smiling. No biggy you're out sailing on a beautiful sailing day. These "rights " arguments are silly. Only thing I've ever said to a jerk on the radio is "please read and memorize the coregs cap".
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post #84 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Amen!!

If someone actually knows and understands the rules, & I find the vast majority do not, then uttering the term ROW will only get you an odd smirk.

The danger in using the term ROW is because it is implies "rights" not duties.

The COLREGS terminology was purposely changed to avoid and any wording that may be mistaken as a "right". The words Privileged and Burdened were actually changed to Stand-On & Give-Way to avoid the word "Privileged" being misconstrued as a "right" and to purposely try and more clearly imply duties and responsibilities under the rules vs. "rights"....

There is no such thing as a right of way for sailboats. Using this terminology around sailors with a limited or no knowledge of the rules only serves to get them into trouble. I have seen this first hand numerous times.

Sadly many books and organizations also use incorrect terminology so it does not help the situation one iota.

I once watched a captain of an Exon Oil tanker, who is also a sailor, verbally lambaste a boater with a complete lack of knowledge of the COLREGS when he stated, back at the club in regards to the 5 blasts of the horn, that;

"I had the right of way because I was under sail".

The sad part is he was in a situation where he was actually give-way (Rule 9) not the stand-on vessel but his knowledge of the rules was so slim & scant he thought he had a "right" not to give-way because he was under sail and the tanker was under power... The guy damn near got himself killed by an oil tanker, in a defined narrow channel, with tug & harbor pilot assistance & nowhere to turn. He completely disregarded the 5 horn blasts even when other boaters were yelling and trying to get him to give-way. The Harbor Pilot showed up about 45 minutes later and verbally lambasted the guy again.

There is no such thing as "right of way" for sailboats. I would argue that the term is actually dangerous just as the authors of the COLREGS believed when they changed the wording from privileged & burdened to stand-on & give-way.

For the sake of the under-educated boaters out there I would suggest we all please stop using incorrect terminology such as ROW. I know of one such guy who nearly died as a result of believing he had a "right"..

P.S. Thanks Sailingfool for using correct terminology in the OP and setting the thread off correctly by using give-way and stand-on...

Rant off...
If I may add, even if one believes they are the 'stand on' vessel, there is still a burden of doing anything and everything you can to avoid collision.

To my knowledge, when a collision of two vessels underway takes place, there will likely be (unequally) shared responsibility.

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Last edited by RobGallagher; 08-12-2016 at 11:26 AM.
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post #85 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

I have two questions: 1) How far away from traffic should you be so you can change course without violating your responsibility as stand-on vessel? 2) If the give-way vessel does not change course how close do you let things get before you take action?

As an example I sometimes sail through an area that has two ferries running the same route. I like to stay out of their way, so basically as soon as I see one I change course so that I'll run well behind it. If they're both out and running behind one would put me in front of the other I'll change course to run parallel to them until they're about to pass, then turn back so I'll pass behind both of them.

I'm assuming this is cool because they're at the point where I can't really even see the cars on deck, so I figure I'm not obligated to stand-on yet.


On the other hand let's say that I wasn't paying attention or there was fog or something and I realize I'm getting close, like I can see people on deck, and we're on a collision course. At this point I'm obligated to stand on, right? How long do you stand-on before you do a panic tack to get out of the way? Whites of their eyes?

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post #86 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
I have two questions: 1) How far away from traffic should you be so you can change course without violating your responsibility as stand-on vessel? 2) If the give-way vessel does not change course how close do you let things get before you take action?

As an example I sometimes sail through an area that has two ferries running the same route. I like to stay out of their way, so basically as soon as I see one I change course so that I'll run well behind it. If they're both out and running behind one would put me in front of the other I'll change course to run parallel to them until they're about to pass, then turn back so I'll pass behind both of them.

I'm assuming this is cool because they're at the point where I can't really even see the cars on deck, so I figure I'm not obligated to stand-on yet.
(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not
impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

On the other hand let's say that I wasn't paying attention or there was fog or something and I realize I'm getting close, like I can see people on deck, and we're on a collision course. At this point I'm obligated to stand on, right? How long do you stand-on before you do a panic tack to get out of the way? Whites of their eyes?
why would you ever be the stand on vessel between you and a ferry, the ferry is following a traffic lane.
(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not
impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

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Last edited by overbored; 08-12-2016 at 01:10 PM.
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post #87 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Amen to both if you, Out and Caberg. But if they come to our waters, C, then we will have to figure it out better, I guess.
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post #88 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
I'll add that in my experience while two guys in a 28' fiberglass runabout trolling a fishing line DO NOT QUALIFY as a vessel engaged in fishing, they probably don't know this, and will consider themselves to be the stand on vessel.

Glad you made it home safely!
I've done a lot of sailing on the Chesapeake during Rockfish season.

Rules aside, a boat trolling multiple spreads maybe even on dredges is not going to be able to quickly alter course without making a big mess of his gear.

When I see boats trolling I do the courteous thing and avoid them and their troll.

Win-win.
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post #89 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

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Originally Posted by seaner97 View Post
You've clearly never been out in a sea kayak in 8 knots with chop. .


And I never will be.



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post #90 of 135 Old 08-12-2016
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Re: Clueless Sailors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by overbored View Post
why would you ever be the stand on vessel between you and a ferry, the ferry is following a traffic lane.
(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
Washington State Ferries do not follow traffic control lanes. On Puget Sound, most of their routes are at right angles to the TCLs. They don't even use them when they're dead heading between ports.

You're confused about what a traffic lane is. Charts with traffic control lanes all contain the notes that nothing about the traffic lanes are meant to override the COLREGS. Charts with Washington State Ferry routes also contain notes that say the ferries may or may not follow the routes on the charts do to conditions, sea states or a number of other variables. The ferry routes are completely different and separate from traffic control lanes, and the ferries may or may not be following their route.

The reason you would be the stand on vessel is simple physics. They move at 18 knots, you move at 7 or 8 in the best wind, you move at 1 in low wind. When they come boiling out of their dock, you can't move fast enough to get out of their way or avoid them.

Fortunately, they're utterly predictable. They're going to follow the COLREGS.

Minnesail, I would suggest you start with a careful reading of the COLREGS themselves, and if that doesn't answer your questions that you investigate a navigation class for recreational boaters.

As this thread demonstrates, rather clearly, an online discussion forum is not a good place to ask questions about the COLREGS, charts, ferries or navigation.

Last edited by Jammer Six; 08-12-2016 at 05:54 PM.
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