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post #21 of 37 Old 02-10-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

IMO, the first thing you do in offshore rough water is use a dye marker...right then.
The person will not be too far away.
Lesser waters are different.
1- know where you need to go to recover the wet noodle.
2- see #1

If you lose location of the wet noodle, somebody may die.
You can fart around awhile with steps 2 thru whatever, but if you skip #1, you failed.
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post #22 of 37 Old 02-10-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

I just read Elerlihys report from cover to cover, it's a nicely written article, and only seems to draw very broad conclusions.

One item of note, the report doesn't say (unless I missed it) that picking a person up on the leeward side is necessarily more effective, more efficient or results in a higher success rate in all conditions. It says the casualties preferred it.

Who cares what the casualty prefers, in a real scenario without safety boats and dry suits, the recovery process isn't going to be fun, the goal is to fish them out of the water before they are incapacitated by hypothermia or lost behind the waves.

Psychologically the leeward side of the boat might be preferable to the PIW because the boat is going to appear lower and less intimidating, but in a real scenario, the casualties not in the driver's seat, he's just along for the ride and is going to get what he gets.

I think we should be careful about drawing conclusions about effectiveness vs preference.

Last edited by Arcb; 02-10-2017 at 10:02 PM.
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post #23 of 37 Old 02-10-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
...
I have practiced the MOB process dozens of times with students, and we are now using a modified technique that, at least on the school boat works like magic.

To reduce the wear on the school boat, we reef the jib to 95%. I am assuming a close hauled to beam reach.
1. Call MOB, spotter, Helmsperson goes to a beam reach (no change to sheets), goes about three boat lengths.
2. Hard tack (no change to sheets). You are now hove-too. Wheel hard to windward to counteract the jib.
3. Steer to windward of MOB and keep high. With the backwinded jib you can drop down to your MOB very easily and blow main if necessary to reduce speed.

.....
I'm a little confused exactly what MOB procedure the student are learning here - after class, when he/she is broad reaching with a full jib, do they know what to do?

FWIW As part of the ASA agenda, I must teach the figure 8 MOB process, which I consider more valuable as a boat handling exercise than MOB per se. Once I have introduced the figure 8 and each student practiced it, for the remainder of the class, for each student on various points of sail, I will periodically toss the cushion and announce a surprise MOB. Any student who cannot routinely recover the MOB does not pass.

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Last edited by sailingfool; 02-11-2017 at 01:20 PM.
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post #24 of 37 Old 02-11-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Your logic was the way it was looked at for years before the actual on the water testing performed by the yacht club previously mentioned.
I freely admit to being old and cranky. I don't think the tests or at least John's report are well done.

To wit:

Quote:
Positioning the boat to windward was the near-unanimous preference of victims in sailboat tests (powerboat rescues involve other considerations). Because boats drift downwind faster than people, a victim to windward may be quickly separated from rescuers. In very rough weather, however, the boat
may blow down violently onto the victim. Victims were adamant that jibs be
doused or furled so flailing sheets do not threaten injury.
Note that John also recognizes that there is a hazard to the MOB from the boat blowing down on the victim. I suggest that this hazard does not require "very rough weather" and is a problem in all but the most benign conditions. Perhaps the difference is in the definition of "rough." I do note that the pictures in the report reflect conditions that are pretty benign.

As @Arcb noted, the preference of the victim (which is what the report describes) is not necessarily what is best for recovering the victim. As @Arcb (I think) suggested, getting the wind well forward of the beam to help control boat speed is also critical.

I am not convinced by the conclusions of the cited report and don't believe the data support the findings in that area. If you sail with me and are silly enough to fall overboard I will come get you and will recover you over the windward side.

We haven't talked about the speed of making contact, achieving a connection, and beginning recovery. As others, including John Rousmaniere's report note, keeping boat speed down is important.

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post #25 of 37 Old 02-11-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

I cited the December 2005 SAIL Magazine article, Overboard and Back by Kimball Livingston and John Connolly

Here is what the article had to say about this. (quoted without permission)

Quote:
LEEWARD VS. WINDWARD PICKUP
On the question of whether to pickup the MOB on the leeward
or the windward side of the boat the jury is in: The leeward side
wins. We spent a lot of time on the issue between 1993 and 1996.
All seven sailing schools in the [San Francisco] Bay Area were unanimous in
choosing to pick up a victim from the leeward side of the boat.

Sailing instructors from light-wind areas feared that the boat
would strike the person in the water if the boat approached from
upwind. We found, instead, that in 25 knots of wind the failure
rate of windward pickups was far higher than for leeward pick-
ups; as the boat slowed on the final approach, it drifted to lee-
ward much faster than the victim. Then the crew on deck had to
start over on a new approach, wasting precious time. Eventually,
there was near unanimous preference for a leeward pickup.

A few weeks after the 1996 tests, a group of us went out
beyond the Golden Gate Bridge, into the open ocean on a
Mason 43. There were several experienced Instructors and
three wet-suited divers with helmets. We spent an afternoon
doing maneuvers in seas of 5 to 10 feet, and we discovered
something unexpected. As soon as a diver grabbed a throw line
and was pulled next to the boat, he rose and fell in the same
harmonic wave pattern of the boat. Hence there was no ten-
dency for the bottom of the boat to come off a wave and crash into the victim.
This strengthened the argument for a leeward recovery.
Again, you pick what works for you, but I will continue to teach leeward pickup of MOB. (I also promote splicing and terminating with adhesive-lined-heat-shrink-crimps, over soldering.)
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post #26 of 37 Old 02-11-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

Crimping rules.

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post #27 of 37 Old 02-11-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

Quote:
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
Not second guessing the crew in the video. They successfully recovered the MOB in an actual MOB situation.

I am, however, promoting that MOB recovery be taught, and practiced, following the recommendation per John Rousmaniere's US/Sailing COB Recovery Rescue Symposium Report http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/..._Symposium.pdf
I agree on the importance of MOB training, but I think the training should be specific and appropriate to the audience. That is to say, what you teach a boat full of young midshipman or a crew of experienced racers, might not be what you teach your significant other who usually shares the boat with you alone.

The core of the MOB subject is the recovery procedure itself, if the crew doesn't get back to the MOB on a guaranteed and quick basis, all the other details become somewhat moot, what side of the boat that you eventually pick the deceased up on ..who cares?

Note that the symposium study reviewed four different procedures and did not recommend anyone as right for all crews and circumstances.

When the audience is the less experienced sailing partner (for example, the still-learning wife), then I recommend focusing on the simplest MOB procedure you can identify. To me that is the procedure the symposium termed the Deep Beam Reach, defined as "Bear off to just below a beam reach, and after 2 boat lengths tack and come back to the victim on a close reach."

I consider this procedure the simplest of the four outlined because:
1. the crew needs to make no decisions based on point-of-sail
2. no gybe is involved
3. only one sailing maneuver is required, a tack.
If the crew can find the broad reach point of sail, then the crew should be able to complete this maneuver successfully, sailing less than five boat lengths. And that solves the biggest part of the challenge.

Now I actually did a video regarding this premise and procedure here:
and offer it for discussion. I will do a follow up this spring looking at the quick stop procedure and the issue of windward/leeward pickups.

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Last edited by sailingfool; 02-11-2017 at 01:21 PM.
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post #28 of 37 Old 02-11-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

Let's be honest here - When teaching on the tiller boats I instruct them on the figure-8, the quickstop, and the broad reach-close reach methods. On a cruising boat with a wheel, we practice these maneuvers too. Once they master these maneuvers with a tiller, they frequently struggle to complete them with a wheel.

However on the cruising boat, I tell them if there is a REAL MOB situation, I tell the students that the most important thing to do is get back to the COB ASAP! I, therefore, advise that they 1. "Shout, Throw and Spot," 2. deploy the Life Sling, 3. consider dropping or furling the sails, and 4. start the motor (blasphemy - ya, I know) 5. approach the COB from downwind (the Life Sling maneuver helps with this), and try to arrange for the final recovery to leeward. During recovery, when the COB comes near the boat, especially the cockpit, ensure that the transmission stays in neutral.


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post #29 of 37 Old 02-11-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

Good video. Glad they shared.

But this is only a potentially dangerous distraction for most of us. For most non-racing boats with short-handed crew (most of us), there is a better answer.

* Turn in to the wind and drop all sail. If the chute is up, drop it fast and ugly (it probably won't be up in that much wind).
* Use the engine.

Anything that moves the boat farther away geometrically increases the chance of loosing contact, and you don't have a spare person to keep eyes-on if it is a couples boat. The procedure demonstrated would have failed and they would not have know where the swimmer was.

----

I know about speed. My last boat topped 20 knots regularly. Al the more important to stop and take stock of the situation, since you are leaving the seen at 1/3 mile per minute. The swimmer is out of sight in 20 seconds.

----

Mostly what erehihy said. Most crew are never going to be race crew. They are family, friends, and guests.
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post #30 of 37 Old 02-12-2017
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Re: Nice MOB video

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
Good video. Glad they shared.

But this is only a potentially dangerous distraction for most of us. For most non-racing boats with short-handed crew (most of us), there is a better answer.

* Turn in to the wind and drop all sail. If the chute is up, drop it fast and ugly (it probably won't be up in that much wind).
* Use the engine...
I see two issues with this advice. The first and greatest concern is that the rush lowering of sails ends up with a sheet in the water, and a fouled prop, and an immobilized boat. The second is taking more time than the so-called deep reach recovery. But better to have a plan and practice it than not.
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Last edited by sailingfool; 02-12-2017 at 02:23 PM.
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