Suicide at Sea and captain charged - Page 20 - SailNet Community
 718Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #191 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Moderator
 
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London!
Posts: 6,181
Thanks: 62
Thanked 285 Times in 258 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Dock
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Janker View Post
- area of incident kept under observation and no further sighting of the man occurred
I havent seen that mentioned at all. They mentioned they didnt stop, didnt go back. so how could they have kept the area under observation?


Mark
Slayer likes this.

Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


People can say they want freedom, but offer them the keys to what chains them, a map to where they want to go,
And they'll turn it down for the cell they know
MarkofSeaLife is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #192 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,070
Thanks: 133
Thanked 180 Times in 173 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

One would think liability occurred prior to his jumping off the boat. Actions after that just compound it.
Like many who take on crew for passage with any regularity Iíve had occasion to take people off watch or not permit them to stand watch alone. In a few very rare occasions (2) over 35 years have restricted them to no deck access either due to concern over their personal safety or the boats.
The old saying for captains is:
Keep the water outside the boat.
The boat moving toward the destination.
Donít break anything.
and END UP WITH AS MANY AS YOU STARTED WITH.
This captain didnít do that. From whatís posted here it seems he wasnít thoughtful as to why the situation occurred. What he could do to mitigate it or totally reverse it. What he could do to prevent bodily harm to that crew.
Once when I was crew on someoneís elseís boat due to a broken through hull we were taking on water. Captain cold cocked crew (his brother) and duck taped him in a sleeping bag as that person was doing nothing but yelling ďweíre going to die, weíre going to die ď. There are ways to restrain a crew without significant injury to that crew. There are ways to get outside advice if you donít know what to do. There are ways to talk down an agitated person and de escalate a situation. There are ways to examine a situation and understand its cause and how to best manage it. From the little hard information available it sounds like this captain failed to do this. The jumping off the boat was the culmination of all these failures. Actions afterwards were the icing but not the cake.
MarkofSeaLife and OldEagle like this.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
post #193 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Member
 
OldEagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 120
Thanks: 27
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Outbound, I agree with everything in your post above except the last line:
Quote:
Actions afterwards were the icing but not the cake
I think a captain standing in his cockpit, watching a crew member go overboard in the middle of the ocean, and sailing away like nothing happened, is more than "icing on the cake".
MarkofSeaLife and Scotty C-M like this.
OldEagle is offline  
 
post #194 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Dakota Lee
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Virginia, South Dakota, Washington State, Key West Florida
Posts: 96
Thanks: 5
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Dock
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Mark

Just had a guy jump overboard. Someone needed to keep continuous eyes on the subject....which is considered best practice. Statement indicated that jumper did not come to surface.

In the circumstances if some one observes the area for a couple of minutes and sees no one the likelihood of recovery is practally zero. After four minutes the guy is brain dead.

If the crew cannot agree that the subject never came to the surface then the captain is in trouble.

Everything else is hindsight and should not apply....not to say it will not.

Pete
Peter Janker is offline  
post #195 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,097
Thanks: 114
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldEagle View Post
Outbound, I agree with everything in your post above except the last line:



I think a captain standing in his cockpit, watching a crew member go overboard in the middle of the ocean, and sailing away like nothing happened, is more than "icing on the cake".
Yes, would be grounds on their own. But the greater culpability crimes, actually contributing to the death, were from the start up to the jump.

From the jump on, negligence a lot easier to prove but less consequential, just a question of retrieving a body.
john61ct is online now  
post #196 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Senior Member
 
hpeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Onboard
Posts: 1,188
Thanks: 12
Thanked 40 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 15
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

I still go back to the Jumpers personal responsibility to take care of himself. It strikes me the jumper did just about everything possible to force this situation. I wonít reintegrate all of his actions and decisions but it strikes me he did not take reasonable personal responsibility to take care of himself, let alone his own personal responsibility to the rest of the crew.

In the final instance, I believe none of the reports indicate he cried out for help after jumping.

Given the scanty and suspect info we have Iím of the mind to believe this fellow was negligent in seeking this crew position and greatly contributed to the final tragic outcome.

I see the Capt and crew as victims of this fellows poor life decisions.

33' Brewer, Murray 33, steel cutter
44' Pape, Steelmaid, cc steel cutter
hpeer is online now  
post #197 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Senior Member
 
Slayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North Andover, MA
Posts: 1,015
Thanks: 21
Thanked 21 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Is the charge negligence resulting in death? And is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt? I donít know, but looking at what is known or alleged, the prosecutor may have a problem with causation. If the captain was negligent in not searching for the MOB, (assuming that is what they are focusing on) can the prosecutor prove that the negligence caused the death? If the only evidence/testimony is that they saw him sinking, there is no evidence they could have saved him by turning around. And if this is like a typical criminal trial, the prosecutor has to prove that but for the negligence the MOB would have lived. The burden is fully on the prosecutor; the defendant has no burden of proving the opposite. Again, this is assuming the typical constitutional protections for an accused applies here. Now if they didnít see him sinking a jury could infer that the man was alive and could have been rescued, and here the jury could find the testimony that they saw him sinking not credible and they could disregard it. Knowing juries, this is a crap shoot.
Slayer is offline  
post #198 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,097
Thanks: 114
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

No, charged under "Seaman's Manslaughter Statute" 18 U.S.C. ß 1115

just simple ordinary negligence is the standard

felony conviction with up to 10 years in prison

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaman...ughter_Statute

Last edited by john61ct; 12-24-2018 at 12:07 PM.
john61ct is online now  
post #199 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Senior Member
 
Slayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: North Andover, MA
Posts: 1,015
Thanks: 21
Thanked 21 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 14
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
No, charged under "Seaman's Manslaughter Statute" 18 U.S.C. ß 1115

just simple ordinary negligence is the standard

felony conviction with up to 10 years in prison

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaman...ughter_Statute

Thanks for the info. There is a causation element...” by whose misconduct....the life of any person is destroyed...”. The prosecutor has to show that the captains misconduct caused the death.
Slayer is offline  
post #200 of 790 Old 12-24-2018
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,070
Thanks: 133
Thanked 180 Times in 173 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

I did not wish to understate the significance of the jump nor lack of rescue. In the past Iíve served as a friend of the court and expert witness on occasion hence have some exposure to similar cases. Rather I had in mind a case of a twenty something who died due to status epilepticus. He was driving when a boat slide off a trailer in front of him then slid up his hood striking his head. The event resulted in severe injury primarily to his frontal lobes. He had severe neurologic deficit but also difficult to control post traumatic epilepsy. Over twenty years later he died in status. I served pro bono as an expert and was also considered material in serving to prove the negligent lack of securing the motor boat by the drunk towing it was directly causal in my patients death and that negligence was the sole cause. That individual was convicted of manslaughter. Once that criminal conviction was in hand a civil suit was undertaken. Given my patient was degreed with an excellent job and expectation of advancement my patientís expected lifetime earning was quite large. Given there was a prior criminal conviction my understanding is the case was settled out of court for millions to the benefit of my patients children.
My prior comments reflect my exposure to that case.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Case of NS sailboat captain charged with importing cocaine due in court - CTV News NewsReader News Feeds 0 04-27-2018 03:40 PM
Publisher's death was an apparent suicide (AP via Yahoo! News) NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-20-2006 11:16 PM
Family: Philip Merrill Committed Suicide - W*USA 9 NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-20-2006 11:16 PM
Publisher's Death Was an Apparent Suicide (Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune) NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-20-2006 11:16 PM
Merrill committed suicide, family members say (Baltimore Sun) NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-20-2006 10:15 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome