Suicide at Sea and captain charged - Page 46 - SailNet Community
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post #451 of 790 Old 01-02-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
..... Just imagine.....
Yes.
This entire thread.
Some so passionate
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post #452 of 790 Old 01-02-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

If this group were the jury the deliberations would last many days.
People sliding past each other with very little agreement or common ground for both sides.
Minds made up despite only partial knowledge of facts, with many of the facts presented by speculation.
Jury a mix of True legal experts with training.......people posting as experts ( they seem to be the multiple posters) ...and innocent bystanders just thinking, and awaiting the true facts vrs the speculated ones

Seeing very little give and take in posers positions I foresee a hung jury.

While some of the conversation has been thought provoking I have to go back to Jeff H caveats.


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post #453 of 790 Old 01-02-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
If this group were the jury the deliberations would last many days.
People sliding past each other with very little agreement or common ground for both sides.
Minds made up despite only partial knowledge of facts, with many of the facts presented by speculation.
Jury a mix of True legal experts with training.......people posting as experts ( they seem to be the multiple posters) ...and innocent bystanders just thinking, and awaiting the true facts vrs the speculated ones

Seeing very little give and take in posers positions I foresee a hung jury.

While some of the conversation has been thought provoking I have to go back to Jeff H caveats.
FWIW, a person develops an opinion based on the situation as they know it and this is true of a person on an internet forum or sitting in a jury box.

Based on the information as I currently understand it, in my opinion, the skipper was negligent.

Whether he is found guilty of negligence in court is dependent on the evidence presented and the opinions of the jury members.

Of course if we learn new information we don't currently have, it could change anyone's opinion, or not, depending on what that information is.

Last edited by boatsurgeon; 01-03-2019 at 12:05 AM.
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post #454 of 790 Old 01-03-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by RegisteredUser View Post
Yes.
This entire thread.
Some so passionate
That was in context of how the law should be written. It's a constructive discussion of what the law should apply to and fully disclaimed this situation. What is your problem?


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post #455 of 790 Old 01-03-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Methinks an axe to grind of some sort.
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post #456 of 790 Old 01-03-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
If this group were the jury the deliberations would last many days.
People sliding past each other with very little agreement or common ground for both sides.
Minds made up despite only partial knowledge of facts, with many of the facts presented by speculation.
Jury a mix of True legal experts with training.......people posting as experts ( they seem to be the multiple posters) ...and innocent bystanders just thinking, and awaiting the true facts vrs the speculated ones Seeing very little give and take in posers positions I foresee a hung jury. While some of the conversation has been thought provoking I have to go back to Jeff H caveats.
You spelled "weeks" wrong in your first sentence.

I'm amazed at people's ability to read contrary evidence, or at least possible explanations for what might have happened, and yet stick doggedly to their initial positions, which are identical to what was posted in the first few posts of the thread. Assumptions ain't facts. Again, the guy wasn't delirious when he got on board, the body sank right away, and the article said the captain wasn't able to call until the next day.

All in all, though, this thread has remained remarkably civil, which is nice.
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post #457 of 790 Old 01-03-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

W I get the same thing which is why I believe the captain failed in his duty PRIOR to the crew jumping off the boat. As a neurologist acute delirium has a very specific meaning. It implies the absence from a structural cause but rather dysfunctional irrational behavior due to intoxicants, drugs, intercurrent infection or illness. You maybe predisposed to acute delirium from pre-existing illness but that isnít the proximate cause. One can speculate as to the cause here with side effects from motion sickness meds being a leading suspect. However, it is stated he was delirious and inferred he wasnít when he boarded the boat. Therefore the delerium was acquired while he was on the boat and under the captains supervision. It is the lack of intervention or obtaining assistance or outside advice prior to the suicide that I believe is the captains failure and he is culpable regardless if he turned around or didnít.
I believe nearly every captain that routinely does passage with newly acquired transient crew has faced occasions where they have had to intervene with crew both for their safety and that of the boat. I can give you chapter and verse of my experiences and Iím sure so can many of the other posters here. I believe I can with some reasonable accuracy identify who recruits crew from their positions here. Events such as this with the potential for adverse or even lethal outcomes do occur. This is not an abstract discussion. As captain you need the right attitude and do the right thing. Whether the law holds you responsibility is another issue but for my dime you should hold yourself responsible. That responsibility includes delivering all crew and the boat (if possible)safely back to shore. Thatís the prime directive. Thatís black and white. Iím upset that some posters seem equivocal on that point which is why I keep posting.

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post #458 of 790 Old 01-03-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Sorry if I'm just lost in the spaghetti a little, but could someone point out where

a) It was concluded that Smith didn't make appropriate Mayday calls? From the original article it seems clear he did make VHF calls, and tried to make SSB calls, but wasn't able to contact anyone for some time. From the fact he did have Chris Parker alert the CG it seems clear that was his intention

b) It was concluded that the boat sailed away from the MOB without conducting any search? The "can't turn the boat around" in the original article is ambiguous but doesn't make sene - why can't you turn a boat around? The more logical meaning is, "there's no benefit to returning hundreds of miles to last port of call, against favorable weather."

Did I miss something(s)?

The news articles on the prosecution's case seem to focus on Smith's duty to do something before Pontious went totally nuts, which is far out - what captain with a seasick or unfit crew member (who otherwise poses no known risk to crew/vessel) does anything other than relieve that person of duties and carry on?
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post #459 of 790 Old 01-03-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Yes, relieve of duty.Assess physical health and cognition. Hydrate if required, discontinue meds if serious side effects suspected. Change or add mds if required. If continuing to decline seek outside advice or help.
People die from intractable vomiting. Mallory Weiss tears can cause exsanguination. Electrolyte abnormalities can cause lethal arrhythmias. As captain part of your DUTY is to supervise the health of your crew. From available information this captain failed in his duty.

Although the wife and I do pretty well in a seastate I carry patches, bonine, sturgeon, compazine supositories, ginger, ginger beer, sports drinks with electrolytes, coconut water etc.
Fortunately to date we haven’t used any of it except the sturgeon but it’s on the boat for the eventuality someone may need it. I have had crew get seasick. Fortunately with support and time not intractable. However, I can see that occurring so I think it’s part of my obligation as captain to think about and prepare for that occurrence. To the degree of changing point of sail for a watch or two to help my crews illness settle down. Just ignoring it, not helping your crew to the degree possible and sailing on as you imply is unacceptable.
Nothing is said what this captain did to mitigate the situation. That’s the information that holds interest to me.

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Last edited by outbound; 01-03-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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post #460 of 790 Old 01-03-2019
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by willyd View Post
You spelled "weeks" wrong in your first sentence.

I'm amazed at people's ability to read contrary evidence, or at least possible explanations for what might have happened, and yet stick doggedly to their initial positions, which are identical to what was posted in the first few posts of the thread. Assumptions ain't facts. Again, the guy wasn't delirious when he got on board, the body sank right away, and the article said the captain wasn't able to call until the next day.

All in all, though, this thread has remained remarkably civil, which is nice.
Excuse me, but where are these "facts" you refer to?

All we have is a supposed Coast Guard report, and a supposed news report, supposedly based on one-sided statements by people being interviewed.

So what we are debating is a story, that may be pure fiction, and not based on any facts at all.

We read the story, try to determine what is true, and base an opinion.

What I believe is true, is that based on the story, there was a boat, with a skipper and 3 crew; only 2 crew came back, and the skipper didn't do nearly enough to try to bring back the third, and is trying to cover up his negligence, that contributed to the possible drowning.

The only reason I am so involved, is because I am appalled by those having the opinion (which may not be fact, they may just be trying to ruffle feathers) that the skipper was not negligent, based on the story, as we think we know it.
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