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post #81 of 790 Old 12-13-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
First: bodies sink, initially, itís called drowning.
They sink when their lungs are full of water. They may not have been. IE he may still been alive. When you jump in you reflexively hold your breath.

As noted earlier by an extremely intelligent person (me) the boat was moving so any view of him sinking and continuing to sink was fleeting as they did not stop, nor reverse course.

As an experiment in the 100 feet per knot per minute math, I will take you on my boat at 4 knots and throw you over amidships and see how long we can peer down underwater to see if you were gunna bob up.

Then we will do it at night, which I gather this case was.

I think the shock of seeing the man jumping over and the fleeting look at a man jumping from 6 foot above water into water would make it look like he is going down.
I would think it I did that 6 foot jump my head would be 4 foot under water before I started to raise again. by the time I float up that 4 feet the boat is long feet down course...

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post #82 of 790 Old 12-13-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

I think they said he cracked his head on the rail when he jumped. So assuming you are unconscious do you float or sink? If you go down 4-6 feet how long does it take you to come up? No one reported hearing him he’ll for help or hear him splashing around.

What seems in no doubt is that the jumper jumped. He made a simple and decisive move to express his will. It was his action that resulted in his death. Personal responsibility.

None of us know what went on, frankly I doubt the participants really objectively know. We at ALL Monday morning Quarter Backing, theee years on, maybe 6 by trial. There is no “truth”, there is only blame.

Who applied for the position?
Was he forthcoming with his issues?
Did he know he got sea sick?
Did he bring his meds?
Did he disclose his mental state?
Did he ask to be put ashore?
Did he ask for a medivac?
Has he had similar instances in the last?
Did he threaten the Master and drew? Is that not mutiny?

The Grand Jury will never know, nor will a jury of his peers. It comes down to either trusting and empathizing with the dead guy or the capt and crew.

It’s 5pm or later in Bangalor, I’m having another G&T.

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Last edited by hpeer; 12-13-2018 at 01:09 PM.
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post #83 of 790 Old 12-13-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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This is a helpful and interesting insight into the function of a grand jury. Were you a state or federal prosecutor?

I've been a civil trial attorney for 10+ years and have used focus groups and have attended several CLEs on planning and conducting focus groups. The comparison to federal grand jury proceedings has been made many times, and it makes total sense to me. Although I know that AUSAs in my jurisdiction have relatively small caseloads compared to their state counterparts, and have the time to think about and plan their prosecution strategy more carefully. Personally, I can't imagine not exploiting such a valuable tool to receive feedback on problematic issues in my cases. That's the whole point of doing focus groups, and we spend quite a bit of time and money to do them.
I was a state prosecutor. And unless federal grand juries work completely differently, I am missing how you get "feedback" from them. You present the case, they say indictment or no indictment. There is no opportunity to ask them what they thought or why they acted as they did. These GJ's are high volume actors, often with lines of ADA's outside of them, waiting their turn to present their case. You aren't allowed to ask them why they acted as they did, even if you had the opportunity to do so.
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post #84 of 790 Old 12-13-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post

As noted earlier by an extremely intelligent person (me) the boat was moving so any view of him sinking and continuing to sink was fleeting as they did not stop, nor reverse course.

As an experiment in the 100 feet per knot per minute math, I will take you on my boat at 4 knots and throw you over amidships and see how long we can peer down underwater to see if you were gunna bob up.

Then we will do it at night, which I gather this case was.
I’m in. But in fairness you have to be the one going over, and you need to hit your head on the gun rail on the way over.

I’ll take care of your boat, I promise
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post #85 of 790 Old 12-13-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by willyd View Post
Not true, according to what I found. Apparently bodies that sink below 100 ft* will not resurface: www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Trailing%20Water/body_float_info.pdf
This is for bodies that have already drowned. Youíre proposing he drowned instantly? You donít believe that. Please.

He was abandon, then drowned.
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post #86 of 790 Old 12-13-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Maybe I'm syndical but this "He then climbed up and over the wiring railing and leaped off the port side of the boat. His head hit the railing on the way down." has hairs on it. Could this statement have been made to cover the fact that if the search party did recover the body it would explain the head wounds, which may or may not have happened prior to the big splash?

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post #87 of 790 Old 12-14-2018
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Sounds like there was no SSB aboard. Seems a bit odd for a boat going this far offshore. Almost negligent in itself if true. There is likely much more to this story than we know.

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post #88 of 790 Old 12-14-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Sounds like there was no SSB aboard. Seems a bit odd for a boat going this far offshore. Almost negligent in itself if true. There is likely much more to this story than we know.

There was an ssb because he called Chris Parker on it the next day.

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post #89 of 790 Old 12-14-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
As an experiment in the 100 feet per knot per minute math, I will take you on my boat at 4 knots and throw you over amidships and see how long we can peer down underwater to see if you were gunna bob up.

Then we will do it at night, which I gather this case was.
Doing an actual MOB procedure is not always easy as Mark points out. Practicing should always be a good thing to do.


Case in point: Last year a the START of the Chicago Mackinac race a sailor fell overboard, a mere 5 minutes into the race on a pro boat with pro crew at noon in broad daylight. There were 300 or so entrants. His body was found a week later.


https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ma...lake-michigan/
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post #90 of 790 Old 12-14-2018
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Re: Suicide at Sea and captain charged

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This is for bodies that have already drowned. You’re proposing he drowned instantly? You don’t believe that. Please.

He was abandoned, then drowned.
And you don't have to believe me. I had the same assumptions you did, but they're not true. Here's a report by some search and rescue experts:

"How many times has a rescue squad come to a waterfront and heard the family say, “We just looked
away for a second and he was gone.” A common misconception is that a swimmer will stay on the surface
struggling and then slowly sink beneath the surface of the water. They mistakenly believe that a witness
will easily have enough time to see the drowning and make a rescue."

http://journalofsar.com/wp-content/u...ach-Bottom.pdf

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Last edited by willyd; 12-14-2018 at 08:39 AM.
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