[backcreeksailor]

I will be a first time owner, but not a first time sailor. I've done single handed cruising on the Napa river, in San Francisco Bay, off the coast of South Carolina, in the Chesapeake bay, and I've done a couple seasons of competitive race boat crewing on J 80/30/105 boats in the Chesapeake bay all on other people's boats. So with that said...

With the following cost/construction constraints, I was wondering if anyone could give me some suggestions on likely choices that will answer the mail:

*********

Assuming $0 down… I’d like to keep my monthly payment under $300 if at all possible, but definitely not over $400.

Model year is less important than condition and I'm open to an older boat as long as it’s financeable, (many lenders apparently won’t finance a boat that’s more than 15 yrs old), and as long as it’s a commonly seen builder brand around the Chesapeake Bay area so that future resale won’t be a big problem.

I'm ok with cosmetic issues that I can work on over time. But I want something that’s fully ready to sail on the day it’s purchased. So the hull/sails/rigging/electricals/mechanicals need to be in good working condition and the engine/batteries must be 100%.

Minimal Must Have List:

• 30’-42' (my slip is 40' x 15')
• Wheel Steering
• Fin Keel - 6.5' or less (no shoal draft or bulb keels)
• Spade Rudder
• Fiberglass Hull
• Inboard Gas/Diesel Engine 15 HP minimum (no outboards)
• Spacious cockpit (preferred over a roomy interior)
• Gauges:
o Electronic Depth
• Galley - Stove
• Head – Toilet+Sink
• Tankage:
o Fuel - 15 gal minimum
o Water - 20 gal minimum
o Holding - 10 gal minimum

Wish List - Structural:

• Fractional Rig (The larger main sail preferred for easy single handed main-only sailing)
• Single Backstay (if so equipped), not running/split backstays
• Spinnaker Pole or Bow Sprit
• Galley - Stove+Sink+Fixed Icebox
• Head - Toilet+Sink+Shower
• Inboard Diesel Engine 25+ HP
• Tankage:
o Fuel - 25+ gal
o Water - 80+ gal
o Holding - 25+ gal

 

[backcreeksailor]

Oh... And I'd like to stay away from any "Hunter" models.

Although I do see lots of them tied up around the bay, there seems to be a pretty large Hunter-hater contingent around the Annapolis area. The general perception seems to be that they're poorly constructed and that they focus too much on creature comforts down below not enough on sailing performance and build quality.

 

[blt2ski]

This day in age, the $0 down part will kill you! Most banks want 20% down. Now that is not to say there are not some banks that will do 0% down, but do not count on it.

As far as brands go, take your pick, if just in the bay, most any boat will probably do just fine! from Hunter on up!

Marty

 

[backcreeksailor]

I can probably pull together 20% (6k on a 30k boat).

I will be spending most of my time in the bay. But I'd like something seaworthy enough to potentially make relatively short cruising runs to places like Block Island and Bermuda.

 

[TSOJOURNER]

Be ready to spend another 10k for every 20k you initially invest on a used boat!
Employ a surveyer!!! One not local and associated with your broker!

 

[backcreeksailor]

The 10k to 20k rule is kinda generalistic isn't it? Can't the total cost of ownership after purchase be affected in either direction by a whole host of more specific factors like, (but not limited to):

Does the boat model/year have any known issues?
Was the boat raced or used only as a fair weather day sailer?
Has the boat logged thousands of hours or was it a dock queen?
Does the owner have meticulous maintenance records or not?
Does the owner's boat upkeep show attention to detail or not?
Has the boat ever been in any major accidents or not?
What issues show up on the survey and during sea trials?

But to narrow down the original question a little more... I seem to be seeing a lot of the following boats in the over 30' and under 30k range. Based on my original criteria and any known issues. Are there any of these builders that most of you would eliminate from the list of contenders? Conversely, which would you put in your top 3?

Beneteau
C&C
Cal
Catalina
Ericson
Morgan
O'Day
Pearson
S2
Tartan

 

[night0wl]

I love the PV & FV functions in excel. If you're assuming a $300 payment with zero down, in todays boat loan market you're talking about a 10 year loan at a rate around 12%. If you further assume you will pay off the loan at the end of 10 years (FV=0), you get a purchase price of: $20,910.16 *GROSS*.

That means this includes all taxes & fees as well. If you assume 6.5% sales tax and additional .5% in misc. fees, you're talking about a boat purchase negoatiated price of $19,542.20

For a minimum of 30', you're looking at likely a late 70's or early 80's Catalina 30 or comparable 30 footer...and at that age, good luck getting financing.

Might want to try to save a bit more money or scale to the 25' level where you can get a decent Catalina 25-27. Financing again, will be tough...but possible.

 

[backcreeksailor]

With excellent credit and if I was looking at an under 30k loan with 6k down, wouldn't that give me a drastically lower interest rate than 12% and a subsequently higher purchase price? (I'm seeing 5.99 teaser rates being advertised on the front page of many boat financing websites).

The part I readily admit that I don't understand is how to predict the loan term lengths lending institutions will allow...

The typical car loan is simple, 5 yrs for new, 4 yrs for used. But in boat financing it can stretch up to 30 years on the far end of the spectrum. I know 30 yrs wouldn't apply to a 30k loan, but how far can you stretch it out?

Is there a chart online anywhere that breaks down the price points and boat ages at which you can get a 5, 7, 10, 15, etc year loan?

 

[sailingdog]

You're putting a lot of limitations on the boat you'll be able to buy. As Nightowl said, your total budget is going to be about $20,000 given your financial constraints. If you put $6000 down, you're looking at $26000 or so total. Anything much larger than a 30' boat is probably going to be one that needs a fair amount of repairs or upgrades.

Generally, I recommend anyone looking to buy a boat—new or used—reserve about 15-20% of their boat buying budget for upgrades, repairs and refitting their boat, since boats are not cars, and often need to be modified to some degree to fit the way you will use the boat.

 

[night0wl]

With excellent credit and if I was looking at an under 30k loan with 6k down, wouldn't that give me a drastically lower interest rate than 12% and a subsequently higher purchase price? (I'm seeing 5.99 teaser rates being advertised on the front page of many boat financing websites).

The part I readily admit that I don't understand is how to predict the loan term lengths lending institutions will allow...

The typical car loan is simple, 5 yrs for new, 4 yrs for used. But in boat financing it can stretch up to 30 years on the far end of the spectrum. I know 30 yrs wouldn't apply to a 30k loan, but how far can you stretch it out?

Is there a chart online anywhere that breaks down the price points and boat ages at which you can get a 5, 7, 10, 15, etc year loan?

No chart that I'm aware of, but these are simple excel formulas. If you have excel, learn to use PV & PMT functions

=PV(rate, periods, payment, future value)
explain the terms
PV = present value...this is where you calculate the value of the loan you can afford.

Rate = your interest rate. Remember, its your annual rate divided by the # of payments per year. So, if you have a 8% ANNUAL percentage rate, your monthly or periodic rate is 8% / 12...or .08/1 or, .0067.

Periods = # of payments you'll make over the term of the entire loan. If you have a 10 year loan, then its 10 x 12 (monthly payments) = 120 periods

Future Value = usually zero, you have to pay off the loan!

You can play with this and the PMT function which is just a variant, with a few different inputs (rate, periods, future value, present value)

 

[CalebD]

You don't say where you want to sail from OR how you will eventually use the boat and yet you are open to fin keel boats of 6.5' in draft and do not want a bulb or wing keel (no 'Hunters'). So who knows which coast or creek the Back Creek Sailor intends to use this boat on? 6.5' sounds a bit deep for the Chessy.

If you have the money and know what is available in your area (wherever that is) then just buy it and good luck.
Your question is posed so generally as to be unanswerable even by owners of the boats you mention. Get a Tartan and put us all out of your misery.

 

[blt2ski]

OR,

If you are NOT proficient with excel, for less than $5 you can get a payment book at local office supply stores, and get your self close to what a payment would be for upwards of 40 yrs, and amount from 5-20% for some books. I've used these for payment budgeting purposes for over 20 yrs, ranging from trucks, bobcat, trackhoe, boat, home etc.

Also, 30K for a reasonably in good shape boat in the mid 30' range is going to be tough, a 30'r is a reasonably good bet.

Choose any of the brands you listed. Do not rule one out as in the end, it might be the best one for you needs. I was ready to rule Jeanneau out just from what I had heard about them, and found a really nice well taken cared of 30' from the mid 80s. Turns out most folks were down playing the boats built in the last 10 yrs or so.

On that note, Hunter made some pretty good boats in the 70's and into the 80's IIRC. A person on our dock has taken his 38' cutter down the west coast more than one time to Mexico and back. Trailered it a few times too.......but that is another story all together.

Marty

 

[night0wl]

Generally, I recommend anyone looking to buy a boat-new or used-reserve about 15-20% of their boat buying budget for upgrades, repairs and refitting their boat, since boats are not cars, and often need to be modified to some degree to fit the way you will use the boat.

Truer words have rarely been spoken. We bought a brand new 2008 Beneteau 343. Our "fit out" list to get the boat cruise worthy is around $15,000...and that CANNOT be financed, its cash up front or it goes on credit cards!!!

Yeah those dealer options seem pricey, or having your dealer install all your equipment with their labor rates seems ridiculously out of line, but the beauty with that situation is that you can get the price of those options financed over 20 years on a new boat! Think about it, yeah you may pay more for your chart plotter installation by having your dealer do it, but you can finance that component over 20 years at 6-7% on a new boat 100k+ loan.

If you were to put it on your credit card and pay it off over a year, you'll easily pay 10, 15, 20, 30%!!!! plus interest on it as you pay it off. Gut feel says that you'd be ahead having your dealer install and rolling the options into your financing.

The trick is getting a dealer to work with you, that allows you to buy the equipment (getting you retail prices and rebates which at times are below wholesale on some items!!)...then have him install it for your and then roll the full costs into your financing package. Most wont do this, but some will. Or finding a 0% credit card deal and loading it up..but those terms are usually only for 1 year, and paying off $15k over 1 year is a tough nut.

 

[hellosailor]

backcreek, you may need to call some finance sources FIRST and see who will offer what terms. Some require more money down (the 20% should do it) but some won't touch a loan under a set dollar value ($30,000 may not be worth their time) and some won't offer the length of time you may want--they may want it ot be longer OR shorter-- while others won't touch a boat over a certain age, which your budget may push you into.

If you belong to a credit union, or can join one, sometimes they are more flexible. But this year--don't count on anyone lending anything, until you find out what they're going to demand. They're all scared stiff.

The "real" boat lenders, i.e. Essex Credit, who take out ads in the back of sailing magazines, should be able to give you some idea of how you'll have to dance. (Do let us know?!)

 

[backcreeksailor]

I'm well aware that lenders holding onto money with a death grip right now. But I'm from the school of thought that anything that flies, floats, or drives should be financed rather than tying up the total amount that could otherwise be used for investments that aren't guaranteed to depreciate over time.

So I do have the means to put 20% down, but I want to keep the initial outlay into the boat as low as possible. I'm also staying very budget minded in terms of the total cost I want to pay for the boat so that I won't be so boat poor that I can't afford a new set of sails when they need to be replaced.

The reason for my desire to keep 30' as the minimum is that I want something that's got enough cockpit area to actually seat me and 4 guests without everyone needing to sit on top of each other. I also want an inboard engine and wheel steering to keep the cockpit area clear, both of which seem to be rare to see on anything under 30'.

So maybe the answer is to start incrementally bumping up the cost from 30k to see where the criteria I want become available in a boat that isn't 20+ years old and unfinanceable.

 

[ehmanta]

Backcreeksailor:
I know of a 1976 Tartan 30 in excellent shape for well under 20k that fits your criteria. You would have to add a little for going offshore, but in the meantime, it would make a great club racer on the Chesapeake. I would put as much as possible down and borrow from family instead of goign through a bank (if possible). I did this when I bought my T-37, my father lent me the money and made a competitive % rate, it was a win-win situtation....... and I did not have to tie up my credit!

 

[backcreeksailor]

You must have been reading my mind... I was actually beginning to wonder how many of those boat owners out there with boats that aren't going for chump change, but are too old to be financed, would be willing to strike up similar owner financing deals as long as a proper contract was executed to protect both parties?

I'll PM you with my email address for additional details on the T-30.

As long as we're talking about creative financing, especially when boat loan foreclosures seem to be on the rise just like with everything else... Other than just social networking... Are there any other ways to find people who are in trouble but haven't let their boats actually go back to the bank yet?

I'm thinking of a take over the payments scenario where the owner might have to take a bit of a loss, but who would be willing to entertain a deal to keep their credit from being destroyed by defaulting on their loan.

 

[night0wl]

For those dollar amounts, and if you have spectacular credit, you may want to try unsecured loans such as Lending Club or Propser.com

 

[backcreeksailor]

Doing paper research only... I think I've narrowed the list of racer/cruiser candidates based on the criteria I originally listed. Plus I also limited my search to 30' boats in the under 25k range, and newer than 1980. I'm listing them in the order of precedence of how well they seem to fit my sailing needs/desires best:

1. Ericson 30+
2. C&C 30 Mk I
3. Catalina 30 Tall Rig
4. S-2 9.2A

The ones I ruled out for various factors including Tiller Only available steering or Cramped cockpits or Poor build quality were:

Irwin 30
O'Day 30
Pearson 30
Cal 30
Tartan 30
J-30

I plan on doing the vast majority of my sailing in the Chesapeake Bay. But I would like a boat that can potentially handle coastal cruising and the occasional run out to Bermuda.

Based on the knowledge and experience here... I'm open to any opinions that would re-order my top 4 for the type of sailing I've described. Or if you would eliminate any that I came up with.